I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!!

This is a discussion on I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!! within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; At 16 this was not her apartment. Unless married (which doesn't appear to be the case) she was in her parent's or guardian's home. Keeping ...

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Thread: I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!!

  1. #16
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    At 16 this was not her apartment. Unless married (which doesn't appear to be the case) she was in her parent's or guardian's home.

    Keeping the gun locked and safe when a teen party was happening was some adult's responsibility---like the dad???? Like the mom???

    Not allowing teen drinking was also some adult's responsibility as well.

    I take minor exception to part of Janq's comments.

    Janq wrote: (I)advise my own students to lock up their guns and repeat same online among gunfu forums to LOCK UP YOUR GUNS!!...That I won't back down from that position.
    If it's not on your person or you are not in the room with direct control of the gun, lock it up! "

    I fully agree with that but with some minor exceptions. WE don't have kids in the house and Mrs. H won't touch the guns even when asked to learn. They are kept one in the pipe in holsters and I see no danger whatsoever from doing this.

    Yes, there is a gamble that a BG could get into the house while we are here, find them and use them against us, but that's about in the same category as having a BG grab it from you. The home invasion scenario being an exception, the house is under my and my wife's control and the guns are under my control though they are not necessarily in my pocket.

    Responsibility in the incident Janq posed falls not with the gun, not with the loaded gun, but with the adults who allowed a teen gathering to take place unsupervised and alcohol to be present.

    There was plenty of negligence by the parents or guardians with respect to allowing the gathering without being present themselves; allowing alcohol to be served; and leaving the loaded gun where "children" could get there hands on it. Somehow this has become a gun story instead of a story about parental negligence and child endangerment through violations of the alcohol laws, and violation of the laws which prohibit allowing children to have access to loaded guns unsupervised.

    Calamities of all sorts are foreseeable when adults allow unsupervised teen parties. These range from what happened in this story to inappropriate "adult" behavior, to trashing the house, to home invasion by party crashers. I think the real message of this story is not about guns and gun safety, but it is about parental responsibilities and parental irresponsibility. The gun was the least of it.

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Janq, this story was more about teens and alcohol than it was about firearms safety, at least IMO. Teens can defeat any lock you put on a firearm in reality. Yes you can put them in a safe; I would bet most teens can find the key you've hidden or can guess your combo from other passwords of yours they probably have.

    Next issue: where were mom and dad? I suppose this comes from my homeschooling, fundamentalist mindset, but teens home alone plus alcohol equals the real problem.

    In my home, I keep the majority of the firearms that are not on me in a safe. That said, the HD shotgun is on a rack in my bedroom with a full magazine, an empty chamber and the safety on. It's three actions away from firing, and with four kids in the house I am completely comfortable with that. My oldest two go hunting with me and know firearms safety well. Even the youngest two know firearms and help me clean them, and go with us when we shoot. They know what guns are for.

    The only "safe" method is to teach your kids all about firearms and de-mystify them. The reason this happened was a kid in the home who thought it was a cool toy and decided to play with it, plain and simple. And IMAO the only safety that is worth anything is the one between your ears.

    I know you disagree Janq, but if we wanted to truly be as safe as possible we would get rid of the firearms in our home because of the slim likelihood of this, as well as the cleaning chemicals and the prepackaged food if we are being intellectually honest. We all balance an acceptable level of risk. YMMV.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    This not about taking away anyones rights.
    This is about exercising your right to keep & bear arms in a responsible manner.
    - Janq
    Key words in the whole thread. Can't say it enough...no matter how you put it. It's a constant practice.

  5. #19
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    I agree with Hopyard. His points are good. I'm in the same situation as to where its just me and my wife. I keep my firearms loaded and stashed in certain places unlocked. My wife is well trained with firearms and is often home alone. So it's comforting in knowing my wife can get to a gun quickly, without opening a safe, and defend herself if an intruder came in. Now we have party's often and many of our friends have teenagers. I will always, always secure my firearms prior to everyones arrival to ensure nothing happens like the story above. Other then times like friends visiting or us leaving the house alone, I dont lock my guns up. There's no need to do so.

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    You cant fix stupid. She is in her situation as a result of her actions. This was a result of bad choices. We all make them, sometimes they bite us. Growing up I would never DARE to have a party in my parents house when they were not home.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Hopyard,

    Clearly your case is specific having no children or other people living with you, which I did not address directly because I dd not think it necessary to address the obvious.

    But...!

    For persons in your case the advisory does stand.

    Why?

    Because eventually you will have _house guests_ as was the case in this story. She was shot by her house guest!

    As well because eventually you do/will leave your home and at that time ones firearms left behind should be secured in some manner.
    Why that is is because ones home/residence is not a secure container. We might wish it to be but it is not.
    Although that drifts away from the focus and point of this specific thread and topic.

    As to responsibility of course that does not fall to the gun, again an item that does not need to be said because it's obvious. The gun is not a sentient being. It is an inanimate object.
    Responsibility falls to the gun owner AND the gun handler as in the immediate.
    Once again this is obvious and goes without saying.

    ~~~

    OldVet,

    That commentary is nothing more than a diversionary tactic...A red herring.
    It matters not what else was or was not featured. It matters not that there was a feature on the oil platform fire or another about breast cancer.
    None of those nor the lack of a story on of all things driving a vehicle or accidental poisonings or kids drinking themselves into a stupor and resulting in accidental deaths or doing drugs and overdosing...Have zero regard what so ever to the focus of this thread subject. FIREARM SAFETY.

    Because people are injured or die of any number of other incidents does not reduce nor excuse that people are injured or die of firearm incidents such as this. One has no bearing what so ever on the other.

    ~~~

    MM,

    Now this story was not about teens and alcohol, nor was t about firearm safety (?).
    How could you think that at all when the only reference to alcohol across three pages of story was a single sentence; "It's spring break," Steltz recounted. "We're all, you know, doing what teenagers shouldn't be, you know, drinking. And I went into the back room and offered them orange juice, and I saw one of my friends with the shotgun.

    After that one sentence at the middle of page one there is no further reference at all to alcohol never mind teen consumption/abuse of alcohol.
    Same goes toward firearm safety. There is no lean what so ever toward firearm safety.

    What the story is about, if you read it, is the severe injury of this woman and her innate will to survive as well as overcome her injuries and losses.

    I would suggest you read/re-read the story and not just look at the specific few sentences I had bolded for purpose of emphasis. Those bolded items are not the story.

    As to de-mystifying firearms and training, I have been talking about that here repeatedly for years now (!). I do this at home with my own children (now ages 3 and 7) and I am a very active instructor of same both as a volunteer toward firearm education & use for children, young adults/teens as well as adults and as a paid instructor/consultant as well. I have been doing this too for years now and I have been quite vocal about same here.

    So no again you are off base as I do not disagree with de-mystification as you put it, which in my book is simply _education_.

    But still even with education we should follow and adhere to basic safety rules of responsible ownership and handling.

    We as gun owners & handlers, adult or child (and this includes teens as they are not yet adult), have a responsibility to ourselves, our familys, friends & neighbors and our community at large to act responsibly with our firearms.

    This too I cover in instruction, and I am very much not alone to that end.
    Nor should I be....As you and everyone in this thread as well as this forum for that matter should be standing tall and with me shoulder to shoulder on this specific item.
    There is no good reason not to be and there is absolutely no reason why incidents such as this story and the very many others of same featured here past to present should occur.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I think the original story has a lot more to do with the resilience of the woman than the eeeeeevils of firearms. It'd be an easy story to make into an anti-2A rant, but they didn't go there.

    I have no problems with being uncompromising in safe gun handling. Why? Because the one time you screw up, the results can be utterly devastating, for you or somebody else. Even when I know a gun is unloaded or unable to fire, I don't want to see somebody pointing a muzzle at somebody else for any reason; if he can't exercise proper muzzle and trigger discipline then, then he is not building the habits that ensure safe handling when the gun is, or may be, loaded.

    As Janq's post points out, there is more to safe gun handling than the Four Rules. If your guns are stored or kept appropriately to your own situation, that may change when you have guests over. Things that you keep out may need to be moved or locked up; guns that you keep loaded may need to be unloaded and stored. It requires constant attention and assessment.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  9. #23
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    Interesting views from both sides. I don't have children yet and I like to keep my guns loaded and available to me and my wife, but hidden more than being just not in plain site.
    Just to throw some gasoline on the debate, here is some info from something I'm sure you all know very well and probably quote to others, GunFacts5.1.

    I'll just copy and paste the argument against locks.

    Myth: Trigger locks will keep children from
    accidentally shooting themselves

    Fact: 31 of 32 models of gun locks tested by the government’s Consumer Product Safety
    Commission could be opened without the key. According to their spokesperson, "We
    found you could open locks with paper clips, a pair of scissors or tweezers, or you could
    whack them on the table and they would open.”242

    Fact: 85% of all communities in America recorded no juvenile homicides in 1995, and 93.4% of communities recorded one or no juvenile arrests (not convictions) for murder.243

    Fact: In 1996, even though there were around 80 million people who owned a firearm, there were only 44 accidental gun deaths for children under age 10, or about 0.0001%.244

    Fact: California has a trigger lock law and saw a 12% increase in fatal firearm accidents in 1994. Texas doesn't have one and experienced a 28% decrease in the same year.245

    Also: trigger-locks render a firearm inaccessible for timely self-defense.

    Fact: Children as young as seven (7) years old have demonstrated that they can pick or break a trigger lock; or that they can operate a gun with a trigger lock in place.246
    Over half of non-criminal firearm deaths for children over age seven are suicides, so trigger locks are unlikely to reduce these deaths.

    Fact: If criminals are deterred from attacking victims because of the fear that people might be able to defend themselves, gunlocks may in turn reduce the danger to criminals committing crime, and thus increase crime. This problem is
    exacerbated because many mechanical locks (such as barrel or trigger locks) also require that the gun be stored unloaded.



    I and my five other brothers and sisters were always taught gun safety. We were also taught to never touch a gun that wasn't ours and to always assume that the gun is loaded NO MATTER WHAT.

    Education, as has been stated, is the key to this.

    Incidents ARE GOING TO HAPPEN. We will never be rid of all accidental gun deaths or injuries no matter what steps or laws people take. There is always going to be some mechanical failure like a drop safety not working or some even small operator error that could result in serious injury or death. Is 642 too many? Is 1 too many? Some would say that just because there is a myriad of possible things that can happen with guns that might result in even 1 person dying we should ban them all.

    The story doesn't go in to detail as to where this kid found the gun-it could have been sitting upright in the corner for all we know. Was the gun loaded before he found it? or did he himself find ammo and load it, then rack it to unload it but not understand that even though the round popped out of the chamber the minute he put the slide forward it was indeed loaded?

    Was the gun locked and he picked or jimmied the lock or fired with the lock in place? Did his parents teach him to not touch other people's guns and he ignored or was he just clueless?
    Where were the parents? Did they know a bunch of drunk teenagers were going to be hanging out at their house? If so, or even if not, once they have kids and that's a possibility-the guns should be hidden and hidden well enough to not just be stumbled upon by a dumb kid. the kids whose house it is should also know generally where is off limits for friends and areas of a party to be.

    Many things we don't know from this obviously sad and emotional story, but is the answer to lock up every single gun?

    Quick answer: No

    Long answer: I guess it depends on the specific situation and personal feelings of the owners, as well as what the odds are of harm coming as a result of having locks vs harm coming as a result of NOT having locks... which really nobody can know those odds!
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  10. #24
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    If your guns are stored or kept appropriately to your own situation, that may change when you have guests over. Things that you keep out may need to be moved or locked up; guns that you keep loaded may need to be unloaded and stored. It requires constant attention and assessment.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly and think this is probably the best answer.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  11. #25
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    mustang, I don't use trigger lock, I use a gun safe
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang00066 View Post
    I agree with this wholeheartedly and think this is probably the best answer.
    Agreed...And that item was so obvious it really shouldn't even have been an item to make mention of.

    Clearly situations change and are dynamic, which is what the case was with this girls story...If folks actually read the story and not just one or two sentences.
    At some time prior to her guests arriving she had been alone in her apt. All was fine, then.
    But later the guests came over (as invited and expected) and she was no longer alone....To which the concept of securing the firearm & ammunition comes into play. Hence the terrible result as catalyst and basis of her story.

    : \


    As to your post about trigger locks, those are well known to be garbage and not just because they can easily be pried off.
    Even with a trigger lock the chamber of the firearm is fully operable and open. Loading ammunition into a gun that is trigger locked is simple as just doing it. Then as we have been discussing in the shotgun thread discharge of longguns is not difficult to make happen without use of the trigger.

    Use a cable lock at a minimum to lock up the action making it physically impossible to close the action.
    That is minimum...Or better yet place them away in a locked cabinet or safe (!).
    I teach this as well and actually show people (especially parents!) using dummy rounds how this works and how easily a trigger lock can be removed from a gun using no tools at all but just ones hands (!).


    Source - Project ChildSafe

    As well in this story the girl herself in her own home was _educated_.
    Lack of education was not her problem.

    One cannot know never mind guarantee, and it is very much not reasonable to assume, that every and any guest (invited or not) that might enter ones home will be firearm educated AND at that a person who is responsible in thoughts & actions.
    There have been VERY many news postings at this forum alone showing just how this is very often not the case...And by that not a safe assumption or stance singularly to take.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #27
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    Even with a gun safe.

    if all your guns are locked up what would you want your teenage daughter who's home all alone and someone breaks in with intent to rape/kill her? would you want her access to the gun completely restricted? Would you even want it slowed by 1/2 second by her having to try and open a safe?

    So many intangibles you'll never know what could/will happen.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  14. #28
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    Janq, similar question to you-

    if all your guns are locked up with cable locks, what would you want your teenage daughter to do who's home all alone and someone breaks in with intent to rape/kill her?

    would you want her access to the gun completely restricted? Would you even want it slowed by 1/2 second by her having to try and get a cable lock off?

    "

    If your guns are stored or kept appropriately to your own situation, that may change when you have guests over. Things that you keep out may need to be moved or locked up; guns that you keep loaded may need to be unloaded and stored. It requires constant attention and assessment.
    (I)advise my own students to lock up their guns and repeat same online among gunfu forums to LOCK UP YOUR GUNS!!...That I won't back down from that position.
    If it's not on your person or you are not in the room with direct control of the gun, lock it up! "
    Originally Posted by mustang00066 View Post
    I agree with this wholeheartedly and think this is probably the best answer."
    Agreed...And that item was so obvious it really shouldn't even have been an item to make mention of.
    From the quotes above it apparently DID need to be made mention of because it sounds like you are saying LOCK UP YOUR GUNS pretty definitively. What I quoted made more of a regard to the certain situation and circumstances and I think is the real answer to all of this rather than an all encompassing LOCK UP YOUR GUNS directive that it seems you were originally prescribing.

    As well in this story the girl herself in her own home was _educated_.
    Lack of education was not her problem.
    She definitely should have been educated to not allow people in the house in areas where guns are especially when alcohol is involved. For me growing up, my parents room was ALWAYS off limits to friends and I was educated as such.
    Last edited by mustang00066; April 23rd, 2010 at 01:38 PM. Reason: added janq's quotes
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mustang the answer to that is simple and should be self evident.

    It matters not that the person of question be a teen or female or ones daughter.
    This has been discussed and advocated at this forum many times and goes on almost daily.

    Solutions:


    1) On body carry
    Where allowable and as within state laws, on body carry of a handgun.
    I'm doing so right now as I type this. Condition 1...With every other firearm in my home locked up (in various states of condition) as is all other ammunition.


    2) Off body stowage, as unlocked
    Where allowable and as within state laws, stowing an unlocked firearm as within your home close at hand (not in the garage or under your car seat as the car is parked outside on the street)...While not in the company of children (teens are children) or guests and/or in areas where either children or guests who are block heads can gain easy and direct access to the firearm.
    This means not kept in the kitchen pantry or towel drawer. Not 'hidden' behind a pillow on the living room couch. Not behind the front coat closet door. Not 'hidden' behind the TV.


    3) Non-firearm related tools & measures.
    Where not allowable and non-compliant with state laws, children and/or unlicensed people and/or citizens not permitted to own/possess firearms either on their person or as unlocked muchless at all have very much viable alternative means.
    Pepper spray, edged weapons, a dog of some size (!)...And much more whihc I will leave to your imagination.

    This question too is one that really just doesn't need to be asked because a half second of thought would or should allow most anyone who has been member of this forum a week to know the answer to considering the focus of this site.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #30
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    3) Non-firearm related tools & measures.
    Where not allowable and non-compliant with state laws, children and/or unlicensed people and/or citizens not permitted to own/possess firearms either on their person or as unlocked muchless at all have very much viable alternative means.
    Pepper spray, edged weapons, a dog of some size (!)...And much more whihc I will leave to your imagination.

    This question too is one that really just doesn't need to be asked because a half second of thought would or should allow most anyone who has been member of this forum a week to know the answer to considering the focus of this site.

    - Janq
    I'd rather have my family members be educated and have access to firearms rather than have them have to rely on "pepper spray, edged weapons, a dog of some size (!)... And much more whihc (sic) I will leave to your imagination."

    The focus of this site is defensive carry. Your original post was how you're a PITA about gun safety and think that everyone should lock up every single gun unless they're carrying it because of a sad story.

    My concern, and the reason I asked that OBVIOUS question about the teenage daughter, was to determine whether or not having them locked up really is the SAFEST thing to do for defense. Considering there are other people who may need to access a gun while it is locked up.

    i'm sure there are equally sad stories of people being killed or injured ( http://gunowners.org/sk0404.htm ) because they weren't able to get their gun safe or even their parents' gun safe open in time. Pepper spray or knifed edge or whatever is no substitute when there's a huge disparity of force and ability (like in a situation I described with the teenage daughter) for a firearm.

    the answer, which I quoted above, that you said was so obvious it shouldn't have needed to be mentioned was that:

    "If your guns are stored or kept appropriately to your own situation, that may change when you have guests over. Things that you keep out may need to be moved or locked up; guns that you keep loaded may need to be unloaded and stored. It requires constant attention and assessment. "

    Which is clearly different from your original all encompassing LOCK UP YOUR GUNS.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

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