I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!! - Page 3

I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!!

This is a discussion on I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!! within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; This is a story of parental failure. Not because they left the apartment (that's life, sometimes) but because they left a firearm unsecured in a ...

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Thread: I'm anal to the point of being a PITA when it comes to firearm safety. This is why!!

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    This is a story of parental failure. Not because they left the apartment (that's life, sometimes) but because they left a firearm unsecured in a house where teenagers would be alone and unsupervised.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mustang,

    That was one fo THREE items I'd cited. Three!!!
    And I was very specific about that third item as relevant to specific conditions.

    As well my statement "lock up your guns" was NOT all encompassing, that too was specific.

    Come on.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #33
    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Mustang,

    That was one fo THREE items I'd cited. Three!!!
    And I was very specific about that third item as relevant to specific conditions.

    As well my statement "lock up your guns" was NOT all encompassing, that too was specific.

    Come on.

    - Janq
    Your other two didn't seem to fit my scenario. In the first you say on body carry and unless you mean this for your "teenage daughter" in my scenario it doesn't fit.

    The 2nd scenario is off body stowage but directly says "While not in the company of children (teens are children)" also doesn't fit my scenario and rules out the first also being relevant to my scenario.

    Your third scenario specifics also state no children (teens are children from 2nd scenario right?) so the only available methods of defense would be exactly as I quoted and responded to your post.

    All three of the things you listed, if followed, would still leave your teenage daughter unable to get a firearm if something horrible came to your house and she's home alone.

    To me and many others, this is NOT more safe than having things hidden well, having your kids educated on guns, having them educated on where other kids can/can't go in the house when mommy and daddy are home or not, and deciding at certain times to lock them up (if you're out of town or something, etc.).

    "This story is why when I tell people IRL to lock up their guns and advise my own students to lock up their guns and repeat same online among gunfu forums to LOCK UP YOUR GUNS!!...That I won't back down from that position.

    If it's not on your person or you are not in the room with direct control of the gun, lock it up!
    Also do not store guns loaded. Duh!
    As well do not touch guns nor handle them if you have not been authorized to do so by the guns owner. If you happen to find a gun or see one in a corner, do not touch it. Just leave it there. You don't touch it and nobody gets hurt!"

    This direction does seem very specific... to lock up all your guns.

    "Hopyard,

    Clearly your case is specific having no children or other people living with you, which I did not address directly because I dd not think it necessary to address the obvious.

    But...!

    For persons in your case the advisory does stand.

    Why?

    Because eventually you will have _house guests_ as was the case in this story."

    Even after Hopyard gave his reasoning for doing otherwise you said the advisory (which previously stated was to LOCK UP YOUR GUNS) still stood.

    You didn't ever say it was specific until i quoted kazaaerexys and then said that that was so obvious that I shouldn't have even bothered writing it and then suggested that I read the story and not just one or two sentences:

    "Agreed...And that item was so obvious it really shouldn't even have been an item to make mention of.

    Clearly situations change and are dynamic, which is what the case was with this girls story...If folks actually read the story and not just one or two sentences."

    I apologize if I misunderstood your posts.

    BUT just because people don't agree with you about something is no reason to get upset and insult people by saying how "self-evident" something should be to a person, just because you think it is to you. It is pretty "self-evident" to many on here to NOT lock up their guns in case they need to be used by someone else besides them (teenage daughter scenario) .

    Saying things like: "This question too is one that really just doesn't need to be asked because a half second of thought would or should allow most anyone who has been member of this forum a week to know the answer to considering the focus of this site" or telling Hopyard, "I didn't feel it necessary to address the obvious" Is not helpful to anyone, nor does it encourage any type of response or discussion (and isn't that the point of this forum?).

    come on.


    This sad girls scenario very probably COULD have been prevented by the parents/girl.
    This is what I see as self evident:
    1- Gun locks/safe? maybe. We aren't sure if perhaps those were in play as the story does not specify.

    2- Don't store ammo next to a gun? Maybe, again we don't know.

    3- Having the girl keep friends out of places where guns are? Equally maybe as perhaps they just went back there while she was in another room or something... but the story makes it sound like she left the back room to get OJ, or was away for an undisclosed amount of time (I guess if it was a HUGE party or something and she had other guests to attend to?) and then came back to the back room and the gun was out.

    But the first two things prescribed, if taken as an absolute rule that I misunderstood you to be meaning, leave the girl unarmed if she needs it and I don't think that's acceptable. The third, that I prescribe and maybe a combination of the three at times (as kazaaerexys post said and i agreed with) is absolutely the best scenario for keeping things like this from happening, but also still allowing those that have an actual need to be able to access a firearm (teenage girl question).

    Sorry for most of the quotes not being in quote boxes.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mustang,

    The second sentence in my response states;

    "It matters not that the person of question be a teen or female or ones daughter."

    Some how you missed that, too.

    My responses for the rest of the thread were not specific to a female, a teen nor a daughter.
    Nevermind that in much of America it would be completely lawful for a female, teen, or daughter to possess and have charge of a firearm within their home and even in some states to carry one on their person.

    I gotta go now...I just walked back in the door from a late lunch meet and I've got an hour to prep & travel to a banquet dinner for the Ruffed Grouse Society.

    Lets you and I agree on this:
    Be safe, respect the law, respect yourself and do your very best as rather than minimum to keep our children safe.

    Means and methods as with anything in life may and do vary.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #35
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    Janq-

    "Mustang,

    The second sentence in my response states;

    "It matters not that the person of question be a teen or female or ones daughter."

    Some how you missed that, too."

    Despite the fact that this implies ignorance on my part, again, not helping any discussion for anyone,
    I didn't miss it, it just was contradicted in your three points of the exact same posting by saying no children/teens should have direct access to firearms!

    "Nevermind that in much of America it would be completely lawful for a female, teen, or daughter to possess and have charge of a firearm within their home and even in some states to carry one on their person."

    I agree and have no qualms about that. I understood your original posts to mean that all guns should be locked up (remember the part where you said:" LOCK UP YOUR GUNS"?), which is why i brought up that whole scenario of the teenage daughter needing a gun in the first place. This situation (having charge over a gun in her home) perhaps was how it was in the house of the girl shot? I thought this was why you called so strongly for locks on guns and which my scenario would fall completely in line with - teenage girl and having access to a gun in her home (one needs it to protect herself the other gets shot by it... Which is why i asked the question so a discussion as to what can be done to help solve both problems could take place).

    The part where you said:

    "...While not in the company of children (teens are children) or guests and/or in areas where either children or guests who are block heads can gain easy and direct access to the firearm."

    From this and your earlier posts, (I am unable to read your mind so I can only go by the words you write), that would mean that children/teens should have absolutely no access to guns (which was my original disagreement) and/or they be locked and that that was what you thought should be done to stop the situations like the one this poor girl had.

    Somehow you missed the logic and contradiction on that topic though, too.

    Not very friendly sounding when someone talks down to you that way huh? haha, i'm kidding anyway with the tone of this current post. I just wanted you to understand what i'm saying about getting a dialogue/discussion in something without having to try and make the other person feel less intelligent than you or by being completely dogmatic and refusing to discuss or see another persons point of view. That way of doing things is completely counter productive to everyone (to others, because they just leave thinking the person is a jerk and may not take the persons good ideas with them because of it and then themselves don't bother engaging in anything, and to the person acting in such a way because they are missing out on others experiences/ideas that may be helpful in forming better/more solid views and opinions).

    "Be safe, respect the law, respect yourself and do your very best as rather than minimum to keep our children safe."

    Agreed.

    There are no hard feelings or any love lost on my end, stay safe and have fun at your banquet this afternoon.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    -Alexander Hamilton

  6. #36
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    WOW: I wrote, "I take minor exception to part of Janq's comments."
    The word "minor" is in that sentence for a reason. I never expected that comment to start the ongoing verbal war here.

    Janq wrote: " Clearly your case is specific having no children or other people living with you" Specific but very common and very far from being unique.

    Janq, I assure you that if and when a certain young fellow named Benjamin we have talked about privately is in my home, the whole house will be child proofed from electric outlets to guns, to moving poisons from under the kitchen and bath cabinets.

    Moreover, when we have company with kids, things get moved, disassembled, etc., just in case one of the little monsters goes where they shouldn't.

    Meanwhile, if my choice is only wear 100% of the time or leave them in a safe, I need a 3rd choice. I want quick foolproof access and no safe is going to give me that. We've had many a post here by folks who found themselves locked out of their safe.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Hopyard,

    Even as that case is very common it isnot within context of my post or that of the story.

    The third and fourth sentence of your response above is directly within contact of my post and that of the story.

    Your fourth sentence as related to choices with you being home alone is moot in relation to context of my post, and that of the story.
    But as it was asked earlier today by Mustang I addressed it and option two that I'd stated well fits exactly what you say you desire...Which is an option that always has been available and doesn't really need to be said. Especially considering it's not within context of the story nor my post. So, as such I hadn't specifically addressed it as possibility.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mustang,

    No I did not say that no teens/children should have direct access to firearms.
    What I did say was this;

    This is a very atypical result to what is sadly a quite typical story among gun owners today and yesterday.
    This story is why when I tell people IRL to lock up their guns and advise my own students to lock up their guns and repeat same online among gunfu forums to LOCK UP YOUR GUNS!!...That I won't back down from that position.

    If it's not on your person or you are not in the room with direct control of the gun, lock it up!
    Also do not store guns loaded. Duh!
    As well do not touch guns nor handle them if you have not been authorized to do so by the guns owner. If you happen to find a gun or see one in a corner, do not touch it. Just leave it there. You don't touch it and nobody gets hurt!
    No statement what so ever about teens or children.
    People every day get caught up in this sort of situation not being children (kids and teens).

    Me pointing out that you missed a sentence does not at all imply ignorance.
    It states you didn't read the sentence. Clearly ou can read so there is no implication of ignorance there. Ignorance of what...Reading? :huh:

    Yes I recall the part about lock up your guns.
    Problem is your own recollection and read is out of context.
    You're fixated on that alone without reading the whole of what I'd stated for sake of context and relevance toward what is the fact of my point.

    Locking up guns for any and all reasons makes no sense!
    Never mind that statement makes no sense as when read within context to what else I'd stated as in connection to that singular statement AND as what I'd stated within relevance to the story that my statement is toward & about.

    How you or anyone can read "LOCK UP YOUR GUNS!" singularly and just stop there without reading what precedes or follows is mystifying to me.
    Especially so when so many others get it/got it and understood.

    Yoru scenario makes little sense as against the actulaity of what I was actually addressing and relating to, in context.
    Which is why I thought and still think you did not and have not read the post, in full.

    I would ask you to re-read my post and the story same as I suggested to the other two...Who wrongly thought assumed the story was about drunken teens, taking guns away, anti-gun bias etc.


    Now to to the quote that came much later which you address; "...While not in the company of children (teens are children) or guests and/or in areas where either children or guests who are block heads can gain easy and direct access to the firearm.", you again are not using context.

    That was part of a whole response to your own teen daughter scenario.
    But go back and read that statement as in totality to it's entire posting...Again _context_.

    2) Off body stowage, as unlocked
    Where allowable and as within state laws, stowing an unlocked firearm as within your home close at hand (not in the garage or under your car seat as the car is parked outside on the street)...While not in the company of children (teens are children) or guests and/or in areas where either children or guests who are block heads can gain easy and direct access to the firearm.
    This means not kept in the kitchen pantry or towel drawer. Not 'hidden' behind a pillow on the living room couch. Not behind the front coat closet door. Not 'hidden' behind the TV.
    This was option number two...Which again oddly you paid no mind to at allin your prior reply, and just fixated on the third of three as though I'd stated that were the only choice viable period. Which of course makes no sense...And is not at all what I'd stated.

    So once again the bottom line is toward that in specific to your specific scenario of teen daughter at home, there are three possible options to select from. All being viable as within ones own comfort level per the teen and that persons age (state laws) as well as that of the parent.
    None of this though being specifically relevant to my original post nor that of the story, in context.

    I am not and have not made you seem less intelligent.
    This is not and never was about intelligence. You should not be thinking in that way, though if that is how you feel then well there is little I can do about that as it is your own feeling.

    What is the point here to this thread though is safety.
    Firearm safety. And responsibility.

    Not red herrings about auto accident numbers or poisonings and comparing numbers of children (kids & teens with teens being anywhere from 13 to 17) involved in accidental firearm deaths as against that of adults (!) involved in auto accidents.

    "Be safe, respect the law, respect yourself and do your very best as rather than minimum to keep our children safe."

    This is, was, and has always been the point of this thread.
    And it will continue to be so.
    And it is necessary to be so because it is extremely important.

    Folks in this thread have talked of rights and freedom.
    Well guess what...Those who wish to reduce or even take away our freedoms use incidents such as exactly this as evidence and 'data' to support their claims. As well they too use red herring arguments such as 50% of suicides are related to guns.

    This has nothing to do with intelligence or feeling s of being less or more so and other such what nottery.
    This about life, living and the pursuit of happiness and what all that comes with that including responsibility. Personal responsibility.

    As back on topic to my original post within relation to the story I'd posted, the context is about safety and being safe and thinking to make the best actions to support same. So as to save a right if not a life, that just might be your own.

    - Janq

    P.S. - Had a great time at the banquet. Didn't win anything but the two guys sitting to my left and right at the table won nice shotguns so hell we all were smiling.
    No hard feelings at all nor love lost, and to be clear on the record I could give two shits about intelligence. What's that anyway? Quantify it.
    Even the slowest of slow persons knows that a gun in the hands of an ignorant person is a danger...While the former Vice President of the United States of America who is well known to be no mental midget couldn't adhere to the basics such as 'zones of fire' and not handling firearms while intoxicated which resulted in a very serious shooting and wounding that caused another man to have a heart attack as a result and suffer severe injury overall.
    So called 'intelligence' ain't nothing but a word in the dictionary, among a whole bunch of others smaller and larger. IMHO.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #39
    Member Array DIXIETWISTER's Avatar
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    It is quite simple really...he don't pull the trigger she don't get shot..there are many stories on how grown adults shoot themselves with their own firearm ANSWER: Dont carry chambered .......but wait how many tragedy's could be prevented if you just carried your gun unloaded..... my guess is alot..so carry your gun unloaded it is SAFER......ask yourself is that a true statement in regards to an AD or ND?? in fact it is.....but does that infringe on your rights?

    If you are a teenager STUPID enough to point a real weapon at a person and pull the trigger and roll the dice...u need to be prosecuted if you were wrong BOTTOM LINE.
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
    1) Call someone with a gun.
    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man

  10. #40
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    from the story It just seems like the shooter was a victim too, poor shooter----evil loaded gun and gun owner.
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
    1) Call someone with a gun.
    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER View Post
    It is quite simple really...he don't pull the trigger she don't get shot..
    The kid who pulled the trigger was not the owner of the gun. Therefore the owner of the gun was negligent in allowing access to an idiot kid, and somebody suffered because of it. That is what is quite simple, and also worth the pointed reminder Janq offered.

    I am really trying to fathom just why you are arguing so vehemently for a gun owner's "right" to be irresponsible...

    Quote Originally Posted by DIXIETWISTER View Post
    from the story It just seems like the shooter was a victim too, poor shooter----evil loaded gun and gun owner.
    Did you read the same story I did? It sure doesn't seem like it...
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  12. #42
    DM2
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    Hi all,
    I didn't read all of the responses in this thread yet, but I'm going to throw a curve ball because I didn't see this mentioned in any of the comments that I briefly read before writing this post.

    I actually saw this story when it aired last night on 20/20. What is not in the article on ABC's website nor in the OP is that the shotgun that injured Ms. Steltz was stolen. Actually, the young man who was her boyfriend at the time and another young man had actually broken into a gun shop while Ms. Steltz was actually waiting in the car. The other two were charged with the robbery. Ms. Steltz was not charged for her part in the robbery because the prosecutors felt that no sentence/punishment would be as severe as the sentence she is already suffering through because of her and her friends stupidity.

    While the full facts of this story do not change the tragedy nor do they change Janq's points about utilizing proper firearm handling safety rules, it does help to shed some light on why proper safety protocols were not followed and how this tragedy came to happen. Alcohol and guns do not mix and drunk teenagers and guns can never have a happy ending.

    I checked, and the full episode is on Hulu.com if anyone is interested.
    DM2
    "I did the thing I feared the most. Excuse me while I cheer. Now here I stand a stronger soul and all I lost was fear." ...Anonymous

  13. #43
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    YIKES

    Quote Originally Posted by DM2 View Post
    Hi all,

    I actually saw this story when it aired last night on 20/20. What is not in the article on ABC's website nor in the OP is that the shotgun that injured Ms. Steltz was stolen. Actually, the young man who was her boyfriend at the time and another young man had actually broken into a gun shop while Ms. Steltz was actually waiting in the car. The other two were charged with the robbery. Ms. Steltz was not charged for her part in the robbery because the prosecutors felt that no sentence/punishment would be as severe as the sentence she is already suffering through because of her and her friends stupidity.
    YIKES!!! Dumb kids!!!!

  14. #44
    DM2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    YIKES!!! Dumb kids!!!!
    Dumb indeed!!!. I can't imagine having to live with the consequences of such stupidity.
    DM2
    "I did the thing I feared the most. Excuse me while I cheer. Now here I stand a stronger soul and all I lost was fear." ...Anonymous

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Gun ownership is a huge responsibility, just like being a parent. Gun safe, and for guns not in the safe and not on your person, cable locks. It's not rocket science, it's a responsibility.

    My safe is in the basement. My carry gun is either on me or cable locked. Why take a chance. You don't leave yor keys in the car in the driveway do you?
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

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