This is a discussion on Dangerous Gun Handling at the Gun Store within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; I'd have shown him the door from the git go....
I'd have shown him the door from the git go.
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)
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Wow-you did very well considering the circumstances. See a lot of these idiots around here in TN. Just because you can get a HC permit (TN has a handgun carry permit, not a concealed) by shooting a .22, doesn't mean they have the capacity to carry a larger gun. The local range has a sign that says Concealed Carry Permit Holders Are Welcome, but please keep it concealed. Any firearm being presented for inspection or range shooting, must be unloaded and cased for safety. The range personel will look at the firearm and inspect for loaded/cracked frames, etc. Only when on a firing line can you be loaded Hot...unless it's kept out of sight, out of mind. I would have done the same and asked him to holster it first, handing the mag and xtra round to him with request not arming it until outside, stating that an accident could happen and he could be sued by any patrons hurt or psychologically affected if it went off. Judging by previous encounters, would ban him from the
store. If you call the cops and they suprise the nutcase, you certainly might have a firefight in the store. Inform him that he has scared some of the shoppers who said they might sue him and the store, ask him to leave and if he is found on store property he will be charged with "Aggrivated Criminal Tresspassing" and jailed. That should scare him away. Get a security camera pic of him and blow it up/post for other employees so that they may recognize him if he returns and immediately call the cops. You will then have the means to keep him away for good or put him away. Unless you know he is a permit holder, he might just be a crazed nut with a gun that really does not know the rules. Also, some local hillbillies cannot read...even if it is posted, assume that they can't read the sign!!! Good Luck, God bless....and keep a can of mace in your pocket, just in case.
Mr. Idiot should have emptied it in his vehicle, and verified empty before ever hitting the door on the way in. What a freak!
Fast is good but accurate is better.
I've seen a BUNCH of dangerous actions take place when someone is trying to clear their weapon. I've even seen several NDs happen at the range because someone didn't clear their weapon correctly. So, I prefer to clear them myself unless I know the other person knows what they're doing.
So being a relatively new comer to concealed carry (a little over a year), I see (and have learned now) basically two appropriate ways to go about safe gun handling in the gun store itself:
1) gun completely unloaded and safe, inside case/ bag...for when you are obviously bringing the gun to be looked at, etc.
2) All else,if during the gun store jaunt there arises some need to upholster your ccw, ask for permission from management/store rep you are working with and how they would like you to proceed in unholstering, clearing, and turning over the weapon.
Seems pretty easy and safest ways to handle. It's too difficult to say here what is the "best" way in handing over your ccw as each person/store may have their preference for safety...obviously understanding not to follow any blatantly unsafe directions by the store.
I was taught that absolutely under no circumstances should you ever pass a loaded gun to anyone.
But I was at the gun shop on Thursday looking for an OWB holster for my M&P9c. Carrying inside the shop is allowed and I didn't anticipate having to test a holster with my own gun, I figured they had one. Well, it turned out not to be the case.
So I was considering a particular holster and the sales guy wanted to make sure it was a good fit. He asked for my gun. I told him it was loaded and he said OK and asked for it. My thought was that he is alot more experienced with guns than I am, and that it would definitely be safer to have him clear the gun. So that's what I did. The cardinal rule about passing loaded guns didn't even occur to me at the time.
When I got back from the shop I coincidentally stumbled upon this thread. My heart sunk to my stomach - how could I have violated one of the cardinal rules of gun safety?!! I really felt foolish.
But then I really got to thinking about this. I understand the basis for the rule of never passing a loaded weapon. But in this situation, I truly believe it was the right thing to do.
The other question I have is in response to the suggestion made by limatunes and others that the "proper" thing to do would have been to go out to the car and unload and clear the weapon there. But how is this any safer? The chances of an ND are no different outside the store than inside.
I plan to stick to the rule in the future about not passing loaded guns (still can't believe I forgot about it the other day). But in my example, I still believe the alternative actions would not have been as safe.
Sending a customer out to the car serves two purposes: 1) removes the loaded gun from the immediate area of the store customers/employees who would no longer be in any danger of an ND and 2) eliminates liability for the store if the customer has an ND. If the customer has an ND in their car, it's all on them and since the bullet has at least one car, maybe a few more, to go through the chances of any bystanders getting hurt is lessened.
Working at a gun shop doesn't mean anything about a person's gun handling skills or their knowledge of your gun or any of the guns in shop, for that matter. Same goes for military and LEO.
AFA not passing a loaded gun, at some point you've got twice as many fingers on the same gun, with less "safe" space to put said fingers and if the gun is dropped you potentially have two people/four hands/20 fingers all spastically reaching for the same precious "safe" space on the pistol trying to beat it to the floor. Which brings up another rule - if you drop a gun, let it hit the floor.
The GS I frequent, has a sign that reads " you don't show us your gun and we won't show you ours"
I think I would have gone into panick mode, " Ahhh look out he's got a gun, somebody call the SWAT TEAM"
That may have put the knucklehead on high alert.
What an imbecile.
Like has been said, get a store manager to post his pic, saying hes not allowed in the shop. Post the notice on the door.
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans
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In the gun store you have people walking around, you have a higher chance of someone just walking in front of you or of being started, someone can try to grab you or your gun (if you think it won't happen then you haven't been in many gun stores). There can be the pressure of people watching you and freaking out and, if you give your gun over to a stranger, you have ZERO control of your (loaded) firearm which, I think, is VERY VERY bad.
In your vehicle you can get in and lock the doors, you can better control your environment and control your firearm in the comfort of that controlled environment. That alone can help limit the chances of a ND. And, as mentioned, it limits the liability for the store.
In the vehicle you have a GREAT pretty bulletproof area in which to point your firearm (the ground/front of the car where the engine is) where no one will be able to step in at any moment. In a gun store you have employees and customers everywhere and very few truly bulletproof areas to clear your firearm at.
And, yeah, if a store clerk asked me to hand over my loaded firearm I would laugh at him. NOT going to happen. I NEVER EVER EVER EVER assume that ANYONE is going to be more safe with a firearm than I am. That kind of assumptions can get you a bullet (and not in a good way).
I would thank him very much for the offer, tell him I'd be right back and go clear my firearm in my vehicle, or, possibly, in a range with a proper back stop or some place where they have a designated clearing area (as some stores do have such areas for both customers and employees) if he said they had no such area I would, indeed, retreat to my vehicle to clear my firearm and come back.
I can easily tell someone leave their gun alone, keep their finger away from the trigger & I'll clear the gun. This is what I do in CWP classes & on the range until I'm sure you know how to properly "clear" your own weapon. I'm sure I would prefer doing the same thing if I worked in a GS.
No offense to anyone here. But, if you came in my shop, home or my range with a loaded firearm, or I was an LEO, I would want to do any manipulations that needed to be done to clear the weapon. (At least until I knew enough about you to trust you.)
I've seen someone (TWO someones), get shot because the assumed the person they were with knew how to safely handle the firearm they were carrying.
I "KNOW" my abilities and don't know squat about yours!