A question from an Anti

This is a discussion on A question from an Anti within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; Instead of the grief of her continuously questioning you, tell her the subject is closed and you won't discuss it. Then refuse to discuss guns ...

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Thread: A question from an Anti

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array RKflorida's Avatar
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    Instead of the grief of her continuously questioning you, tell her the subject is closed and you won't discuss it. Then refuse to discuss guns with her in any context. Moms can be stupid too, just like Dads.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    (sigh)


    Really, though, it's something that should be decided with statistics and not one's gut.

    The odds of holstering and drawing ones gun "for fun" is about a gazillion times more than drawing one because "it's needed". I've currently holstered an infinite times more than the number of times I've 'needed' to draw, or at least what ever 'dividing by zero' results in.

    Right, but that's not why people carry. People carry in case it's necessary. Yeah, fair enough. So what's the difference between a drawn (and ready) gun and a drawn (and unracked) pistol? Really? Almost zero time, with training. Or, maybe two seconds on the outside. How many of your draw scenarios suggest using both hands? You need a pretty specialised scenario such that your second hand isn't adding utility (moving the shirt, moving the jacket, stretching your belt, etc.). Yeah, sometimes one hand is just as good as two, but I think those are rare if one is thinking of most scenarios. So, making your drawing technique require two hands isn't much of a burden.

    So, this is where simple statistics come in. What're the odds that your SD event 'suffers' from needing to rack? 1/10? 1/100? Like, I mean, where the time racking was a critical threshold?

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have +1. That's a personal choice, as long as you're capable of affording any ill consequences (to yourself or others). I am saying that losing the +1 would be a way to increase safety and doesn't relatively decrease the pistol's SD potential as much as it increases the safety.
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  4. #18
    Member Array RockStrongo's Avatar
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    I disagree with your view on the +1. Assuming that you will have a "free hand" or those extra couple of seconds to rack a slide is a horrible idea. When you need your firearm, chances are you will not have much notice, or your weak hand could be injured, blocking a punch, etc. To me, it is like driving around without your seat belt and planning on putting it on right before the accident. It just doesn't make sense. As for holstering and reholstering your pistol for "fun", or practice.. you should not be doing that with a loaded weapon anyway. You have another "gun" to handle for fun should you get the urge.

    I appreciate that folks should consider safety first, and do whatever keeps them safe. I don't think that keeping the chamber unloaded on a defensive carry pistol is the answer to insufficient training, and practice.

    Stay safe!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post


    Really, though, it's something that should be decided with statistics and not one's gut.

    The odds of holstering and drawing ones gun "for fun" is about a gazillion times more than drawing one because "it's needed". I've currently holstered an infinite times more than the number of times I've 'needed' to draw, or at least what ever 'dividing by zero' results in.

    Right, but that's not why people carry. People carry in case it's necessary. Yeah, fair enough. So what's the difference between a drawn (and ready) gun and a drawn (and unracked) pistol? Really? Almost zero time, with training. Or, maybe two seconds on the outside. How many of your draw scenarios suggest using both hands? You need a pretty specialised scenario such that your second hand isn't adding utility (moving the shirt, moving the jacket, stretching your belt, etc.). Yeah, sometimes one hand is just as good as two, but I think those are rare if one is thinking of most scenarios. So, making your drawing technique require two hands isn't much of a burden.

    So, this is where simple statistics come in. What're the odds that your SD event 'suffers' from needing to rack? 1/10? 1/100? Like, I mean, where the time racking was a critical threshold?

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have +1. That's a personal choice, as long as you're capable of affording any ill consequences (to yourself or others). I am saying that losing the +1 would be a way to increase safety and doesn't relatively decrease the pistol's SD potential as much as it increases the safety.
    Hoganbeg likes this.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    What keeps her car in the garage from just "coming on" and running over her toes?

    (Although years ago, I did have a car that wouldn't turn off.)
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Take her to the range and let her see for herself that it won't "just go off by itself".
    Tried that once. It didn't go well, at all. We had actually talked about it several weeks in advance and planned the trip. My dad was ok with it and tried various guns. My mother just shuddered every time one went bang and complained about feeling sick.

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  7. #21
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    The “it just went off” mentality is fostered by the so-called news media. Never will they report, “Someone left a gun out and an unsupervised child found it, pulled the trigger and killed himself”, instead they will report, “A child found a gun and it went off killing the child”.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockStrongo View Post
    I disagree with your view on the +1. Assuming that you will have a "free hand" or those extra couple of seconds to rack a slide is a horrible idea. When you need your firearm, chances are you will not have much notice, or your weak hand could be injured, blocking a punch, etc.
    Fair enough. Like I said, I think of it as a statistical exercise, based on odds. I think it's really a trade-off between ability-to-rack and potential safety, where numbers matter. If either choice leads to a 'bad' result, the person will regret the choice either way. And we tend to not notice when the choice didn't matter.
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post


    Really, though, it's something that should be decided with statistics and not one's gut.

    The odds of holstering and drawing ones gun "for fun" is about a gazillion times more than drawing one because "it's needed". I've currently holstered an infinite times more than the number of times I've 'needed' to draw, or at least what ever 'dividing by zero' results in.

    Right, but that's not why people carry. People carry in case it's necessary. Yeah, fair enough. So what's the difference between a drawn (and ready) gun and a drawn (and unracked) pistol? Really? Almost zero time, with training. Or, maybe two seconds on the outside. How many of your draw scenarios suggest using both hands? You need a pretty specialised scenario such that your second hand isn't adding utility (moving the shirt, moving the jacket, stretching your belt, etc.). Yeah, sometimes one hand is just as good as two, but I think those are rare if one is thinking of most scenarios. So, making your drawing technique require two hands isn't much of a burden.

    So, this is where simple statistics come in. What're the odds that your SD event 'suffers' from needing to rack? 1/10? 1/100? Like, I mean, where the time racking was a critical threshold?

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have +1. That's a personal choice, as long as you're capable of affording any ill consequences (to yourself or others). I am saying that losing the +1 would be a way to increase safety and doesn't relatively decrease the pistol's SD potential as much as it increases the safety.
    Increases safety? If I don't feel safe at +1, I haven't practiced enough. I don't carry because of odds and likelihoods.

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    Doesn't California drop test guns before they can make their list? Maybe you could lookup some information regarding California's testing and list of "California safe guns" that would convince her.

  11. #25
    Ex Member Array Bullet1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    Could you placate mom by not keeping one round in the chamber? It strikes me as wise to not have the +1 anyway
    Sorry, I think that is totally opposite of WISE,,,, of course
    that is just my opinion,,,,, and its OK that we have a different
    opinion.

  12. #26
    Member Array Zepoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    The “it just went off” mentality is fostered by the so-called news media. Never will they report, “Someone left a gun out and an unsupervised child found it, pulled the trigger and killed himself”, instead they will report, “A child found a gun and it went off killing the child”.
    I was going to say this exact thing. Then I thought.. "I better read the rest of the posts to make sure someone else hasn't already posted it" and here you are. Beating me to it.

    Agree 100%. They make it sound as if guns are some mysterious magical thing that just go off whenever they want. "Some kids were playing around with their fathers shot gun, and the gun went off". Saying it just "went off" adds an element of mystery to the story. Mystery = Drama.. and drama is always good for hyping up a story. If they said "someone pulled the trigger and the gun went off, then where's the drama. It's pretty cut and dry.

    I always tell people that cars don't start until you turn the key, and guns don't go off until you pull the trigger.

  13. #27
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    why waste your time, you can't change some people...... shut your mouth and don't stir the pot
    genauwiedu likes this.

  14. #28
    Member Array bigjason6's Avatar
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    You could always do what I did with my anti gun gf... She was trying to tell me the same thing about guns just going off for no reason. She and I sat down at the kitchen table while I proceeded lay out a rifle, shotgun, pistol, and pistol carbine. I then loaded and chambered each weapon, set them down in a safe directions and clicked off the safetys. I asked her to sit there and watch the layout of ready to fire weapons while I cooked dinner. We had a nice meal and none of the guns magically jumped up and started firing. After dinner she said I made my point clear enough that guns just don't "go off"on their own and asked when I'm going to take her to the range!

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Increases safety? If I don't feel safe at +1, I haven't practiced enough. I don't carry because of odds and likelihoods.
    Yeah, YMMV. I certainly vary my carrying habits based on perceived safety. I balance likelihoods (implicitly) of danger when deciding to carry or not. Some people carry all the time, and don't change their behaviour based on their expectations. Other people pack based on the environment they're going to. Those people are making decisions based on their impression of odds and likelihoods. :)
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  16. #30
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    If these things "just go off", why don't they ever randomly go off in people's safes? Why do they always "randomly" go off when someone is fiddling with it? Makes me wonder....

    OpJ

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