A question from an Anti

This is a discussion on A question from an Anti within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; Originally Posted by CanuckQue Really, though, it's something that should be decided with statistics and not one's gut. The odds of holstering and drawing ones ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post


    Really, though, it's something that should be decided with statistics and not one's gut.

    The odds of holstering and drawing ones gun "for fun" is about a gazillion times more than drawing one because "it's needed". I've currently holstered an infinite times more than the number of times I've 'needed' to draw, or at least what ever 'dividing by zero' results in.

    Right, but that's not why people carry. People carry in case it's necessary. Yeah, fair enough. So what's the difference between a drawn (and ready) gun and a drawn (and unracked) pistol? Really? Almost zero time, with training. Or, maybe two seconds on the outside. How many of your draw scenarios suggest using both hands? You need a pretty specialised scenario such that your second hand isn't adding utility (moving the shirt, moving the jacket, stretching your belt, etc.). Yeah, sometimes one hand is just as good as two, but I think those are rare if one is thinking of most scenarios. So, making your drawing technique require two hands isn't much of a burden.

    So, this is where simple statistics come in. What're the odds that your SD event 'suffers' from needing to rack? 1/10? 1/100? Like, I mean, where the time racking was a critical threshold?

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have +1. That's a personal choice, as long as you're capable of affording any ill consequences (to yourself or others). I am saying that losing the +1 would be a way to increase safety and doesn't relatively decrease the pistol's SD potential as much as it increases the safety.
    Cite your source.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post


    Really, though, it's something that should be decided with statistics and not one's gut.

    The odds of holstering and drawing ones gun "for fun" is about a gazillion times more than drawing one because "it's needed". I've currently holstered an infinite times more than the number of times I've 'needed' to draw, or at least what ever 'dividing by zero' results in.

    Right, but that's not why people carry. People carry in case it's necessary. Yeah, fair enough. So what's the difference between a drawn (and ready) gun and a drawn (and unracked) pistol? Really? Almost zero time, with training. Or, maybe two seconds on the outside. How many of your draw scenarios suggest using both hands? You need a pretty specialised scenario such that your second hand isn't adding utility (moving the shirt, moving the jacket, stretching your belt, etc.). Yeah, sometimes one hand is just as good as two, but I think those are rare if one is thinking of most scenarios. So, making your drawing technique require two hands isn't much of a burden.

    So, this is where simple statistics come in. What're the odds that your SD event 'suffers' from needing to rack? 1/10? 1/100? Like, I mean, where the time racking was a critical threshold?

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have +1. That's a personal choice, as long as you're capable of affording any ill consequences (to yourself or others). I am saying that losing the +1 would be a way to increase safety and doesn't relatively decrease the pistol's SD potential as much as it increases the safety.
    What are the odds. Nobody knows. But here is one for you. You have your child with you. SHTF and you move the child with your RACKING hand and pull your NOT LOADED gun. Opps.....Do yourself a favor and take some training.....
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
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    My relatives are that way too: "We hate guns... they're too dangerous... how can you have a gun with kids in the house?"

    They think that living in the South has changed me and my family into 'rednecks' because we all shoot.

    I think my 10-year-old daughter is safer around firearms than my brother would be!
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  5. #34
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    What are the odds. Nobody knows. But here is one for you. You have your child with you. SHTF and you move the child with your RACKING hand and pull your NOT LOADED gun. Opps.....Do yourself a favor and take some training.....
    Look, I get what you're saying. You can imagine scenarios where the +1 was critical. So can I. Heck, if I've got my kid with me, and need a hand to herd him, then maybe going +1 would make sense. Racking is something you can do at nearly any time, so when there's the feeling that racking would make sense, a person can just do it.

    The seat belt analogy just doesn't make sense with what I'm saying. I balance my seatbelt-wearing based on the perceived safety of the seatbelt (in any specific instance I'm in the car). Heck, I also drive with two or one hand on the wheel based on my perception of safety. I can see the argument for driving with two hands always, but I still don't. If I am driving one-handed, and get worried, I can go two-handed.

    Like I said, I get what you're saying. I can only ask if there're more instances where people regret being +1 vs. regret not being +1. And unless you're packing during your nighttime pee, I think nearly everyone changes their level of preparedness based on their perception of the riskiness of their environment.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    Look, I get what you're saying. You can imagine scenarios where the +1 was critical. So can I. Heck, if I've got my kid with me, and need a hand to herd him, then maybe going +1 would make sense. Racking is something you can do at nearly any time, so when there's the feeling that racking would make sense, a person can just do it.
    Yea like in the mall, shopping center, or any other public place. Its makes sense now....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Yesterday, I was having a phone conversation with my mother, a die hard anti who claims to HATE guns. My mother also knows that both my wife and I own and carry Glocks. Apparently my mother saw something about the "rise of the American gun" book and also overheard some coworkers talk about leaving their CCW in their car, which she knows I do when I am at work. During the call she asked the following question: "when you are carrying 'it' in your pants, what keeps 'it' from going off and blowing your toes off?" I had the phone on speaker phone and my wife and I both tried to explain that these 'things' just don't go off on their own and that unless the trigger is pulled it doesn't fire. We stated that when it is in a holster that the trigger area is enclosed so that this doesn't happen. We explained how Glocks have mechanisms to prevent them from going off if they are dropped. My wife also stated that most guns that lack thumb safeties also have a heavier and longer trigger pull. None of this seemed to register or make sense to my mother, who appears to be under the impression that these 'things' really do just, go off on their own.
    I think your first step is to identify what your goal is.

    If your goal is to convince your Mother that the gun isn't going to go off unless the trigger is pulled, you've got a reasonable chance of achieving that goal if you can come up with the right analogy/explanation.

    But my guess is that you ultimately would like your Mother to see the light and acknowledge that guns can be safe and that carrying is a wise thing to do. If that is your goal, I'd say forget about it. If you are having trouble getting her to believe that the gun won't go off unless the trigger is pulled, it's hopeless to think that she will ever agree with you on this more controversial topic.

    Most of us have this instinctual desire to seek approval from our parents. At some point you just have to realize that you are grown up and can make your own decisions. Easier said than done, especially on topics that revolve around potential life and death, i.e. guns. You'll just drive yourself crazy trying to push that rock up the hill.

    Good Luck,
    Doc

  8. #37
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    You should have said 'well, gol-durn, I go in for toe transplant surgery once a month, but it's the price I pay for freedom'.

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    @CanuckQue, there is an excellent youtube video by Limatunes dealing with the subject of whether or not you will have time and the ability to rack the slide if you are attacked. All of her tutorial videos are really good. Here is a link: limalife's Channel - YouTube

    @DocPMD, for the most part, I just don't discuss it with my mother. Obviously she is "concerned" about it as she brought it up after overhearing some co-workers. I think, more than anything, she was disturbed to learn that some co-workers carry. She has an irrational fear of guns, insert any anti sentiment on the books and it applies. I am not going to change that and it would be futile to try. Now if she only knew that my dad wants to get one for keeping in the house ....

    @speculator: I should say something like that with a good, accentuated drawl. It would go over real well.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    CanuckQue -

    I have a couple points to make:

    How do you know you are going to have two hands available when you need to draw?

    If you've trained as I train at Suarez, then you've heard the expression, "Get the hell off the X!" If someone has drawn on you or is drawing down on you, are you just going to stand there, draw and shoot? Or do you think it might be wiser to move (quickly!) from your position while simultaneously drawing and getting hits on your target? (With enough training, it's not all that much more difficult to shoot on the move. For example, I've been training with SI for around a year now, and I can get all my hits in the 9 and 10 rings while shooting one handed on the move).

    Now, if you cannot move to your right, you will move to your left. If you move to your left, you will only have your main hand on the gun. It'd be very, very difficult to rack the slide in this scenario.

    Then, when we do our "real" practice within 15 feet, we do what is called "zipper shooting," i.e., we begin shooting at the target from the moment the weapon is clear of the holster and pointed at the target, all the way out to full length.

    ---------------------------

    Look, I understand the need for safety, and if you are really that worried about accidentally firing the gun while holstering, then take all the time you need when putting the gun back in the holster. Hell, you can stare at the holster all the way in if necessary.

    Also, the people who say not to take your eyes off the area are a bit over the top; if you're holstering your gun, it's because the threat has already been stopped. At this point you should have already taken a really, really good look around you and checked yourself to see if you've been hit. At this point, you are 100% certain that their is no longer a threat to you or anyone around you, so take your time putting the gun back in the holster because trust me, you're gonna need it!
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  11. #40
    Member Array Roguestew's Avatar
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    +1 AZ

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    You don't know. It's an odds thing. Look, I can spin my point with an absurd question. How do you know you'll have time to draw? Why not walk around with the pistol-in-hand? There're about a gazillion scenarios where you'd be prevented from drawing, you can probably imagine four or five right now. And then I can put emotive stress-words into the question ... KIDS ... PSYCHOPATH ... right?

    The reason why you don't walk around constantly gun-in-hand is because of your perception of safety, which is an implicit acceptance of basing your decision on perceived odds. You're assuming (/hoping) you have about a complete second or two to notice the threat, decide on action, draw, and then decide to fire or not (which might take more time).

    I'm very much NOT saying people shouldn't be +1, that's a personal choice based on your ability to afford the consequences either way. I am saying that not being +1 does improve the odds against an accidental misfire. Yes, I can imagine scenarios where the +1 was a critical component. So can you. It's a balance. I'm just not convinced that the number of times people were happy they were +1 outnumber the times people regret being +1.
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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    You don't know. It's an odds thing. Look, I can spin my point with an absurd question. How do you know you'll have time to draw? Why not walk around with the pistol-in-hand? There're about a gazillion scenarios where you'd be prevented from drawing, you can probably imagine four or five right now. And then I can put emotive stress-words into the question ... KIDS ... PSYCHOPATH ... right?

    The reason why you don't walk around constantly gun-in-hand is because of your perception of safety, which is an implicit acceptance of basing your decision on perceived odds. You're assuming (/hoping) you have about a complete second or two to notice the threat, decide on action, draw, and then decide to fire or not (which might take more time).

    I'm very much NOT saying people shouldn't be +1, that's a personal choice based on your ability to afford the consequences either way. I am saying that not being +1 does improve the odds against an accidental misfire. Yes, I can imagine scenarios where the +1 was a critical component. So can you. It's a balance. I'm just not convinced that the number of times people were happy they were +1 outnumber the times people regret being +1.
    Why even carry then? Your playing the odds. Thinking that they are in you favor...You play Odds in vegas, not with you life...
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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array nightsonge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperatorJ View Post
    If these things "just go off", why don't they ever randomly go off in people's safes? Why do they always "randomly" go off when someone is fiddling with it? Makes me wonder....

    OpJ
    but sometimes they do, observe. :-)

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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightsonge View Post
    but sometimes they do, observe. :-)

    gun safety gone wrong - YouTube
    That was funny....FYI there is some language not suitable for kids and work.....LOL
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  16. #45
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    Here's another viewpoint to the whole +1 or not thing - there's no reason to draw your loaded firearm unless you fear for your life, so there's no reason to un/re/holster or otherwise handle it. Gun is in holster before putting holster on belt/in pants, go about your day, gun is in holster when holster is removed from pants/belt; problem solved. If you must unholster/reholster during the day, do it in private and take your time. The whole odds thing is folly - relatively speaking, house fires are very rare considering the number of homes, but people carry insurance; car accidents are rare, but people carry insurance and wear seatbelts; odds don't mean squat when the stakes are extremely high like losing all you own or losing your life.

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