Another bad habit, muzzle in the air

Another bad habit, muzzle in the air

This is a discussion on Another bad habit, muzzle in the air within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; Trying to break myself of a bad habit that was pointed out at the range a few weeks ago. While walking up to the line, ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array ColoradoDave's Avatar
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    Another bad habit, muzzle in the air

    Trying to break myself of a bad habit that was pointed out at the range a few weeks ago.

    While walking up to the line, I had the muzzle of my weapon pointed up in the air and slightly down range. The guy I was at the range with who is an NRA Instuctor called me on it, and I'm glad he did.

    Guess I've watched too many westerns and cop shows.
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  2. #2
    Member Array joffe's Avatar
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    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ition-sul.html

    Best position for when your gun is out but you're definitely not in a fight.

  3. #3
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    yep, was about to suggest Sul position too
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Array LeCalsey's Avatar
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    South is easy to learn just like finger off trigger. I was originally taught a very different set of rules but the newer safety rules are easy to re-teach yourself
    2A is not negotiable

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Negative on SUL.

    At a public range on a line an SO will very likely have a problem with SUL, and I would too.
    The bore of the firearm should most properly and _safely_ be aimed down range and no where else.
    Not up, down, nor to either side. Down range...as in firearm bore on the horizontal.

    Pointed in the air is a no brainer as to why that is a bad idea.
    Pointed in SUL position is same as related to the deck material one is standing on be it concrete which will cause errant rounds to ricochet flatly and into the feet or ankles of _other_ persons standing around. Or if even on packed dirt debris can latter and even the round ricochet again off into other persons feet and legs.

    When at a range and approaching a line the firearm should be as handled pointed down range (very old and well known NRA taught rules!) or stowed in a case or carrier of some sort and it with bore pointed down range.
    Or best yet, _holstered_ on your body.

    Position SUL is reserved for single person combat conditions handling of a firearm as when active but observing...or when in some tacti-cool class of tacti-cool characters.

    Wrong - Gun High


    Right - Pointed down range


    Wrong - Position 'SUL'

    Image source - http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=318889

    Right - Holstered on body


    As an SO if I saw a shooter at a public range approach the line/bench in the SUL position I would immediately stop him and insist on a correction, even as I know what SUL is and what it's purpose is toward...which is not for approaching the line/bench so as to shoot.

    - Janq

    Also note with SUL where is the bore of the firearm on the above pic pointing? (!)
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #6
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    hmmm.....to each their own, maybe OP should check into what his range says is good/bad for THEM
    all our officers are trained to Sul.....and our training officers are the SO for the public range we have our LE only range alongside....and guess what they teach.....

    I'm not talking about while teaching a class with people lined up beside each other, thats up to who is teaching the class, but to say Sul is absolutely wrong is wrong...IMO
    LEO/CHL
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    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    64Z,

    I did not say nor imply that SUL is "absolutely" wrong.

    I'd said specific to the relative condition as related by the OP, use of SUL is wrong.
    There is a time, place, and condition for use of SUL and approaching a line or bench at a public range is not that time, place, nor condition.

    Further this is established and explained as such in the thread your linked which explains why SUL was developed, it's intended application, and where as well as when it is to be applied...which is not when approaching a line or bench at a public range.

    ...Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position. It was primarily designed for the Brazilian officers as they poured Out of their SUVs on missions in the slums. Their muzzle control was atrocious, and since Max and I were in the SUVs, it did not take much brain power for us to create a solution to this evident problem -- be it right or wrong for many of the US instructors and critics. I think most of them thought it was a substitute for a classic "gun-ready" position and that is where the confusion came in.

    The position has taken off among the law enforcement and military training community. After they understand the concept, it's hard for them to disagree with it, especially since it affects safety - predominately their own!

    I teach the position because in any firearms class I teach we have a 360 “HOT” range. All too often trainers and students get marred down in the square range mentality, or the idea that threats only comes from in front of them. Now more than ever we need to train our officers, operators and students that threats come from 360.

    “SUL” is an alternative to the ready or low ready position, perhaps better suited to crowded environments. With correct technique, a weapon held in this position is less likely to violate Safety Rule #2 by pointing at people unintentionally.

    The properly applied SUL also prevents the muzzle from pointing at the shooter’s feet and legs when scanning 360....
    Oppositely use of a high ready bore down range approach is best and safest for use at a public range, but is equally "wrong" and not best nor safe under the specific conditions as described above, hence the reasons for development of SUL.
    There is no 'absolute'. Everything as related to handling of firearms is conditional as based on environment and application.

    I am confident that when you show them this thread ask their view that your training officers will also agree, as well they should.

    - Janq

    Edit:
    Here is an article on the use of Position SUL again being specific as to time, place, and very specific condition as an applied method.
    http://www.tftt.com/images/Articles/...y_Position.pdf
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #8
    BAC
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    SUL wasn't intended to be a general movement position. Or so I thought.


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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    I dont know if SUL is right or wrong but it sure looks goofy. I say keep it holstered or pointed downrange.
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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    SUL wasn't intended to be a general movement position.
    Bingo.

    It's an operator static position method of at guard environmental observation.
    Very much specific in condition and not general purpose use for Joe Blow civilian moving to and fro at a public range.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #11
    Member Array ColoradoDave's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the info guys.
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    You need to consider the area. I work at a range that has concrete in the parking lot as well as on the range - muzzle down is out as Jang pointed out. Also, (from personal observation) people consider anything less than horizontal as down - that wouldn't cut it. Pointing the muzzle downrange all the time will result in sweeping the shooters on the line while in the parking lot or checking in and we do have people bring deer rifles still loaded from last years season. Up is all that's left. Up is also easier for RSO's to verify and more comfortable for shooters. While bullets can travel 5+ miles, that is when fired at a 45 deg angle and we are miles from the nearest town. Any ND's, if the muzzle is up will most likely land in the woods or in a field. Sometimes it's a least of all evils thing.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Long guns being transported to or from a line/bench position at a populated (1 or more other persons) range should be done so as cased...all the way up to the line/bench position. To be uncased for direct inspection and thereafter the chamber opened and locked as such while out and in use between shots of fire.
    As for handguns they should be on body holstered or cased if not carried in a container (not by hand). Same rules apply toward their actions being kept open at the line/bench.

    This is just basic firearm safety sense.

    As nedgr noted people do show up stupid and do stupid unthinking things like transport firearms that have been stored loaded and 'forget' that they are loaded.

    Also you don't want to be the club that has an errant round as fired up into the air that arcs and catches wind to land on some persons head far outside the range. It's a public relations nightmare for your facility and the personal legal and financial liability is steep.

    Police: target shooter may have hit NASCAR fan
    Man fired 5 or 6 rounds near rifle range five miles from speedway
    updated 2:38 p.m. ET, Mon., Nov . 3, 2008
    FORT WORTH, Texas
    Police: target shooter may have hit NASCAR fan - Motor Sports- nbcsports.msnbc.com

    All of this really should be a no brainer.

    - Janq

    "1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction." - The National Rifle Association
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Bingo.

    It's an operator static position method of at guard environmental observation.
    Very much specific in condition and not general purpose use for Joe Blow civilian moving to and fro at a public range.

    - Janq
    well, not just static observations, for movement too but we won't go there since thats not the topic

    as I said, it would be up to the SO and the situation, as I and others have said each range has its own situations....ground material, table/line setups, etc, each range-own rules

    I think the OP's statement of walking up to the line would need to be defined in detail....if it was meant with other people on the line already and OP walking up to line with hot weapon from 15 ft behind them then heck no, but I thought it was meant to be 3ft behind line with nobody around him then it would be ok
    I wasn't detailed in my post enough....should have said joe blows walking around all over gun range should not use Sul...that was not my intention
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  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    I've been to military ranges LEO ranges Civilian ranges, and private ranges. The only rule that has stayed the same is dont point it at anything you dont want to destroy. Considering the various things with various firearms ammo types, and placement of everything else, the Safe direction is differant at each range. Follow the range rules, but keep your brain ingear too where you're pointing.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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