don't want to make anyone mad but....

This is a discussion on don't want to make anyone mad but.... within the Basic Gun Handling & Safety forums, part of the General Firearm Discussion category; (You just have to read a thread starting with that subject, don't you?) On a matter of safety, rules say "Keep your finger off the ...

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Thread: don't want to make anyone mad but....

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    don't want to make anyone mad but....

    (You just have to read a thread starting with that subject, don't you?)

    On a matter of safety, rules say "Keep your finger off the trigger"
    yet I see many people doing this:

    Placing an ink pen, marker, wood dowel, or shotgun shell into the trigger guard and resting a gun on the item to take a photo of the gun. Isn't this just as dangerous as a finger on the trigger? Maybe more so, your finger has nerves telling you your pressing it, and that the trigger is moving, the dowel has no feed back, less control.

    Suppose you trip while reaching for the gun after taking the picture, you end up catching your fall by pushing down on the gun. If its loaded it's going off. (And all guns are loaded, aren't they?)

    I suggest that there is really no reason to be placing an item of any kind into a trigger guard. Take the picture with the gun laying flat on the table.

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  3. #2
    Member Array boss mustang's Avatar
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    While your concern is valid, I would hope that anyone setting up to take photos of their guns would have cleared the weapons before doing so.

    If they have not , chances are they are violating other safety rules as well.

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    As long as the firearm has been cleared I don't see the issue.

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    Member Array rathos's Avatar
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    I can see your concern, but by that way of thinking you could never have dry fire practice either, because the gun is always "loaded" .
    ‘‘To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

    — George Mason

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    Member Array larefugee's Avatar
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    I've seen photos like that, now that you mention it, and I don't understand why they were set up that way. I agree with you in principle about staying away from the trigger unless you intend to pull it.

    I always suspect that a gun may be loaded, and handle it with the appropriate caution. Even if I have a gun with no magazine and the slide locked back, I still don't want to point it in an unsafe direction because I don't want to confuse my brain into thinking that sometimes it's OK, and sometimes it isn't. Better to train my habits to work in favor of safety at all times. That's how I look at it.

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    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterX View Post
    As long as the firearm has been cleared I don't see the issue.
    I'll bet I can find pictures of revolvers here that show the gun is loaded if I look hard enough.

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    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    I'll agree that IF anything is placed in the trigger guard to facilitate photo taking, the gun should be unloaded BUT, there is such a thing as an unloaded gun. While you should always treat any gun as loaded, there is a point where it is KNOWN to be unloaded. If not, no one can ever safely clean their firearm and no one can EVER dry fire for practice. The reason items are placed in the trigger guard when taking photos is to change the angle and the light reflection properties. It's also more difficult to take a photo of an item on an elevated table from directly overhead and get a good photo. I've taken to propping up my firearms where a vertical and horizontal area meet because I don't like the looks of something sticking through the trigger guard, but if the firearm is confirmed clear, it's a perfectly safe practice.

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  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    (You just have to read a thread starting with that subject, don't you?)

    On a matter of safety, rules say "Keep your finger off the trigger"
    yet I see many people doing this:

    Placing an ink pen, marker, wood dowel, or shotgun shell into the trigger guard and resting a gun on the item to take a photo of the gun. Isn't this just as dangerous as a finger on the trigger? Maybe more so, your finger has nerves telling you your pressing it, and that the trigger is moving, the dowel has no feed back, less control.

    Suppose you trip while reaching for the gun after taking the picture, you end up catching your fall by pushing down on the gun. If its loaded it's going off. (And all guns are loaded, aren't they?)

    I suggest that there is really no reason to be placing an item of any kind into a trigger guard. Take the picture with the gun laying flat on the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by rathos View Post
    I can see your concern, but by that way of thinking you could never have dry fire practice either, because the gun is always "loaded" .

    The same would go with disassembling the gun for cleaning. Actually on several weapon platforms you actually have to pull the trigger before you correctly disassemble the weapon for cleaning.

    Basically the cardinal rule before the rule to keep your finger off the trigger is this one; All guns are always loaded until you personally have cleared the gun. Once you have accomplished this, it is in fact safe to touch the trigger.

    In other words. Never take anyone's word that a gun is unloaded until you have personally physically cleared the gun.

    Every time you pick up a gun, you assume it is loaded, until you have personally cleared the gun.

    Any time a person hands you a gun, you assume it is loaded until you have personally cleared it.

    Once you have personally and physically checked and cleared the gun is it safe to believe it is unloaded because you have personally seen to it that it is in fact empty

    We all know that guns in the case at gun stores are kept unloaded, right? And yet, each and every time the store employee hands me a gun I want to look at, I immediately point the gun in a safe direction, (usually at the ground in front of me) and then I physically open the action and look and feel inside to ensure that it is in fact, unloaded before I do anything else with the gun.

    I was at Cabela's last week with my dad. I saw several people do unsafe things with the firearm after it was taken out of the case and handed to them by the employee. I looked at 3 Sig's while I was there. Each one of them I removed the magazine, locked the slide and stuck my finger inside the chamber as well as looked inside and made sure I saw daylight.

    After that it was safe to "dry fire" the weapon. And even then, the other cardinal rules apply which is; Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. (check- dry fired at the concrete floor) Know your backstop and what's beyond. (check- my backstop was a concrete floor, the earth was what was beyond that.)

    I have photographed weapons being propped up by using a pen or magic marker inside the trigger guard as well. I have also personally checked and cleared the weapon first. Really, there is no problem doing that.

    However, I would caution any "novice" new to guns to refrain from such actions until they have years of safe gun handling experience. And you should also perform such tasks away from other people. The more people around, the higher the chance of getting distracted.
    -Bark'n
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I'll bet I can find pictures of revolvers here that show the gun is loaded if I look hard enough.
    I know you could, mine included, except for my python, which I used a 12ga shell to prop up, the other were laying flat on the table, rug, or a blanket.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    It beats looking at the hairy toes in ratty flip flop pics of guns on linoleum.

    I would hope that Darwin isn't at work with the propped up guns but safety dictates the outcome.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I see your concern and like others have said the weapon should be cleared,and recleared after leavuing your sight,IE going to the bathroom and coming back out,Murphy might of loaded it when you weren't looking.I'm so concerned about a ND that even when I field strip my guns I clear them,then check chamber again and then before I pull the trigger check again.
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    It beats looking at the hairy toes in ratty flip flop pics of guns on linoleum.

    I would hope that Darwin isn't at work with the propped up guns but safety dictates the outcome.
    I'll ask my wife to make sure she puts on tennis shoes before snapping pics in the future
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    (You just have to read a thread starting with that subject, don't you?)

    On a matter of safety, rules say "Keep your finger off the trigger"
    yet I see many people doing this:

    Placing an ink pen, marker, wood dowel, or shotgun shell into the trigger guard and resting a gun on the item to take a photo of the gun. Isn't this just as dangerous as a finger on the trigger? Maybe more so, your finger has nerves telling you your pressing it, and that the trigger is moving, the dowel has no feed back, less control.

    Suppose you trip while reaching for the gun after taking the picture, you end up catching your fall by pushing down on the gun. If its loaded it's going off. (And all guns are loaded, aren't they?)

    I suggest that there is really no reason to be placing an item of any kind into a trigger guard. Take the picture with the gun laying flat on the table.

    A little over critical IMHO......

    I guess I will put a disclaimer below my pic next time to ease this kind of anxiety. Of course the gun is unloaded......if it was loaded I wouldn't be messing with it to take a pic.

    Lets not insult the intelligence or safety concerns of our members .....like I see all to often around here

    Edit: I guess the next topic of yours should be that we shouldn't refer to getting new firearms as getting/picking a new toy, or the like.

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    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I'm so concerned about a ND that even when I field strip my guns I clear them,then check chamber again and then before I pull the trigger check again.

    LOL I do that also...and still get butterflies (I'll just check one more time) when I have to pull the trigger (Wait!! I'll check just one more time) to release the slide....heh.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogbones View Post
    LOL I do that also...and still get butterflies (I'll just check one more time) when I have to pull the trigger (Wait!! I'll check just one more time) to release the slide....heh.
    Are these the same people who run back into the house to double check the stove 3 or 4 times? I am all for checking and all firearms should be treated as loaded but come on, lets give ourselve some credit.

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