July 4th

July 4th

This is a discussion on July 4th within the Bob & Terry's Place forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Just here to wish everyone a safe and happy July 4th....

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Thread: July 4th

  1. #1
    Member Array Vermontgunowner's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Just here to wish everyone a safe and happy July 4th.
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    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Happy Independence Day!!!
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  3. #3
    mkh
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    Same as above posts.
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    Happy July 4th!!
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    Happy and safe fourth of July to all.
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    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    During our Independence Day celebrations I encourage everyone to remember the vision and wisdom of our founding fathers and the bravery of the people to stand up for freedom against a repressive government.
    Be safe and remember more people have died celebrating our freedom than died earning it.
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    Happy and safe 4th of July to all
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    Ex Member Array Ivey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    During our Independence Day celebrations I encourage everyone to remember the vision and wisdom of our founding fathers and the bravery of the people to stand up for freedom against a repressive government.
    Be safe and remember more people have died celebrating our freedom than died earning it.
    I agree. I also encourage everyone to remember that the founders were men who held slaves, denied everyone the right to vote except white, male land owners, denied Native Americans the right to vote, slaughtered untold numbers of them, often unarmed women and children, and even led a few thousand of them on a death march in the dead of winter.

    I respect our founders but I often find myself objecting to the ridiculous odes to these men as some bastions of freedom and equality, compared to today. The truth is, these men would be the most evil tyrants you could imagine, if they were in charge and running things today, as they did in their time. When I hear this constant talk from some corners about "repressive government" and "tyranny" coupled with these odes to the good old days that never were, I can only shake my head and wonder where these fairy tales come from that our founders were less oppressive, less tyrannical than our government of today, when in fact, by our founders standards, our government today is a shining example of freedom. We don't allow people to be held in slavery. We let women vote and we don't declare Thursdays "beat you wife in the street" day. We don't deprive certain races of people their land, take it from them and give it to white men of European descent. We don't lead particular races of people on death marches through the snow.

    These men were revolutionary for their time. There were not and did not form a government that was less oppressive or tyrannical than what we have fought to achieve since then. Once we were free from the Brits, we began a long process of freeing everyone else from the ruling class that held everyone else down that was not a white, male, European descended land owner. The government we have today, the liberties and freedoms we fought for to free slaves, to give women the right to vote, to at least STOP murdering the Natives that were left.....

    These lofty ideas we hear repeated so often, these odes to the founders, are often seen through the most rose colored glasses you can find. What we have today is much better than what they had then. If you want to go back to that, I suggest you first take stock of who you are and where you would be in that society... because if you stop living in HollyWood movie land and recognize that most all of us would be poor, indentured servants, share croppers and would not have even been allowed to vote, you might rethink all this talk of how much "freedom" the founders had.... yeah, they had it.... but their slaves, plantation foremen, wives, daughters and anyone not lilly white, European, male and owning land did not.

    And that's how it was... not how you remember it from some Mel Gibson movie.

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    VIP Member Array GhostMaker's Avatar
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    A happy and safe Independence Day to you as well my friend!
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array GhostMaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    During our Independence Day celebrations I encourage everyone to remember the vision and wisdom of our founding fathers and the bravery of the people to stand up for freedom against a repressive government.
    Be safe and remember more people have died celebrating our freedom than died earning it.
    Hoorah...from a 101st old timer.
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    U.S. Army Desert Storm Veteran
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Yes....safest of the 4th to all....and remember, keep those firearms in non-firing positions tonight when the sun goes down and the fireworks begin........

    Do I need to repeat that last part.........
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  13. #13
    Nix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivey View Post
    I respect our founders but I often find myself objecting to the ridiculous odes to these men as some bastions of freedom and equality, compared to today. The truth is, these men would be the most evil tyrants you could imagine, if they were in charge and running things today, as they did in their time.
    Great post for 4th of July. I appreciate your throwing a little reality into the picture. However, I think you went a little far in the rhetoric. The founding "fathers" were not perfect, and forming the nation with the institution of slavery intact proved to be a really big problem (if not just a bad idea). Wiping out indigenous peoples is, in retrospect certainly, morally reprehensible. But what they did do was a huge, HUGE, step forward in creating a nation that got us to this point today. They did what they could under the circumstances they were in. Flawed, bigoted, avaricious, murderous, and arrogant....yeah, sure. But "Evil Tyrants"? I think not. I can imagine worse. Guys Like Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and King George have given me the tools to imagine much worse.

    I still appreciate what they did for me. It would be hypocritical of me to enjoy the bounty and freedom they created and judge them for bestowing those gifts upon me.

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    OK just a fun picture...........

    4th.png
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    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

  15. #15
    Ex Member Array Ivey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix View Post
    Great post for 4th of July. I appreciate your throwing a little reality into the picture. However, I think you went a little far in the rhetoric. The founding "fathers" were not perfect, and forming the nation with the institution of slavery intact proved to be a really big problem (if not just a bad idea). Wiping out indigenous peoples is, in retrospect certainly, morally reprehensible. But what they did do was a huge, HUGE, step forward in creating a nation that got us to this point today. They did what they could under the circumstances they were in. Flawed, bigoted, avaricious, murderous, and arrogant....yeah, sure. But "Evil Tyrants"? I think not. I can imagine worse. Guys Like Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and King George have given me the tools to imagine much worse.

    I still appreciate what they did for me. It would be hypocritical of me to enjoy the bounty and freedom they created and judge them for bestowing those gifts upon me.

    Sorry if I went a little too far or was a little too harsh.

    I do however, often cringe at the notions that our founders were not oppressive or even tyrannical in their governing of the fledgling nation. "Evil"? Well... likely not. Not in context of time. Most people who place people into bondage and forced labor would be considered so for today, but that is a whole different discussion.

    I have a friend who is a founding member of the League of the South. He is a retired professor of literature from the University of Georgia. Educated fellow. Most of the League of the South founders are. They are open secessionist and advocate for the return of the old system of rule the founders had in place. It wasn't until I spent some time with this man and got a thorough picture of what this system would look like, that I began to understand that most folks perception of how things were under the founders is WAY OFF. I would likely be an indentured servant. At best, a foreman on the wealthy man's plantation, just a notch above the slaves. I would never own land in my lifetime, perhaps if i saved my entire life and passed it on and then my son saved his entire life and passed it on.... maybe in three or four generations our family could rise out of poverty.

    There are just a whole lot of completely ridiculous ideas about what freedom and tyranny was then as compared to now. Most of us wouldn't be allowed to even vote by the founders. If you were black or a woman, you could not OWN A FIREARM.

    So, yeah, I think a whole lot of people need a reality check when it comes to the odes to the founders. They were visionary for their time, but the idea that we would be more free then, than now, is a fairy tale.

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