Shooting in the back - Page 2

Shooting in the back

This is a discussion on Shooting in the back within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The only warning I would give,after determining if I have a clear shot, is " DROP YOUR WEAPON AND GET ON THE GROUND" If he ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array geod's Avatar
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    The only warning I would give,after determining if I have a clear shot, is " DROP YOUR WEAPON AND GET ON THE GROUND" If he turns towards me with the weapon ,then He is now a threat to me and the clerk, He 's going down. I'm not going to let someone get shot while I can do something.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimsum View Post
    Lets say that I am at a convience store and the gunman is pointing a gun at the clerk. Do I pull out my gun and give the gunman a warning, get gun happy or just stay put? My instructor said shooting a gunman in the back looks bad on you but he did not give different scenarios.
    Anyone know what an LE would be required to do? I'm thinking in such a situation an non-LE would at least be judged against the LE's requirement.
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  3. #18
    Member Array Blownsvt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    If you shoot the BG in the back, then by reasonable assumption that would indicate you are at some degree of angle to his rear...And not to his side or front angles.
    We're talking 15 degrees max.

    So being to his rear as within a 15 degree angle how can you tell with surety that the bore of the gun is faced at the third party and not for example at some inanimate object such as say the floor or ceiling, which does happen?

    As well how can you tell if the BGs finger is on the trigger?
    This latter item is highly important. If his finger is on the trigger and you fire into his "back", you cannot at all with any reason be sure that he will not secondarily discharge that weapon as into the third party person that you believe to be on the opposite end of the bore (be that belief accurate or not).

    No, I would not shoot a person such as in this scenario in the back.

    If pressed though and that my only available option were to either fire or in the _IMMEDIATE_ watching the BG execute the confirmed & known GG third party ( I say confirmed & known because it cannot always be assumed that said person is in fact a GG), then I _might_ target the head with a fine accuracy aimed shot. Just know if you miss or that round penetrates the head (or his back) that you have a GG third party just on his other side as within handgun engagement range. Very high risk.

    I think my first thought would be rather than to shoot to instead make a noise and draw the BGs attention as away from the third party.
    Toss a can or some other object at hand as in a direction away from the third party AND as from me for the BG to turn and look toward if even momentarily allowing for a better higher chance of success shot by me, the interjector.

    One must think things through, completely, before acting.

    My default thought would be to 1) Get myself (!) to concealment if not cover, 2) Assess and observe looking not just at the active threat but for his backup (hyena always hunt in pairs & groups), 3) Determine the relative degree of seriousness by the active threat(s) because he having a weapon of some sort is not on it's own a clear determinant of intent to actually use it, and 4) What is the attitude and response from those around me including not just the immediate victim but others in my air space watching him, them _and_ ME too!

    This is not simple 1+1=2 math.
    It is instead very often a pop quiz featuring trigonometry...



    - Janq
    IMO it really should not matter. The fact that we have to worry about this stuff is not right. IMO anyone that comes into a store points a gun of any kind at the clerk or any objust in his vicinity to intimidate him into giving up the money or whatever doesn't deserve to walk out of that store anyway.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Anyone know what an LE would be required to do? I'm thinking in such a situation an non-LE would at least be judged against the LE's requirement.
    its not so much what we would be required to do as what we would be allowed to do......each state's law are different, as usual, regarding this situation....but here in the Lone Star State its the same for cops and non-cops...you have the right to intervene to save a 3rd party,
    only difference is I'm required to take action...but that can be a head shot with no warning or other intervention,
    me personally it would depend on the situation, where I was, how they were situated, etc,
    I have confidence in my ability to take that head shot but could also try to use the power of persuasion, but I'd also want someone on the phone to 911 to get the cavalry en route
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  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Well a very interesting scenario indeed.

    If by myself: I'm going to seek shelter and be prepared to take action, dial 911 give location immediately, if it looks like it's going south for the clerk or whomever, I'd probably make some noise to take the heat off him/her throw something, smash a window anything, use my mind.

    If with my wife or Grandkids: I'm going to evaluate the situation and try and get them out of their or to a safe location while dialing 911 and ensuring if it turns into a shooting, I've got the BG in my sights for a good shot and follow ups.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    its not so much what we would be required to do as what we would be allowed to do......each state's law are different, as usual, regarding this situation....but here in the Lone Star State its the same for cops and non-cops...you have the right to intervene to save a 3rd party,
    only difference is I'm required to take action...but that can be a head shot with no warning or other intervention,
    me personally it would depend on the situation, where I was, how they were situated, etc,
    I have confidence in my ability to take that head shot but could also try to use the power of persuasion, but I'd also want someone on the phone to 911 to get the cavalry en route
    I think the right to intervene and non-requirement to intervene are important, but seperate issues, to the 3rd issue.

    Assuming the 3rd party wants to act, assuming the relevant laws allow action, if action is taken the 3rd person *assuming non-LE) must do what is reasonable / rational.

    This 3rd factor is a good samaritan giving aid. In a medical situation most of the time those that act that do not have a duty, must have acted rationally, in good faith and in accordance with their level of training.

    However, I'm thinking good faith / level of training will only apply to the victim. Odds are if 3rd party gets involved, and something happens to victim, it would be a matter of meeting gross negligence vs the negligence of the criminal who put the victim in danger.

    This all assumes the criminal is not an UC LE, etc, but even then, some judgement on negligence.

    I don't think good samaritan aid would apply to 3rd party damage to criminal. Most likely regardless of the level of training, the courts will look for some reasonable standard, and that standard is what actions would LE be allowed.

    So depending on the jurisdiction, you may find you are protected from the damages you or the criminal inflict on the victim, because odds are the criminal was more negligent. However you may actually be held to a higher standard for the injury you might cause the criminal. As is often stated in movies / tv shows, it is not what happened but what you can prove with an added not given the reasonable standard the courts will apply.

    I'm going on a limb and saying, in geneneral, warning may be prudent.
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  7. #22
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    Depends on the way the BG is acting, I think. Certainly, move to take cover/concealment, look for accomplices, and make yourself a better backstop if possible. Obviously call 911 if you can.

    I'd much rather he walks out peacefully with the money, but I also understand that that is not always an option. I will act to prevent the death of myself or obviously innocent parties if that appears imminent. I am not a security guard tasked with the protection of the money in the register, or "taking out bad guys".

    Virginia law allows the use of deadly force to stop an imminent threat of death or serious injury against myself or other innocent parties.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by geod View Post
    The only warning I would give,after determining if I have a clear shot, is " DROP YOUR WEAPON AND GET ON THE GROUND" If he turns towards me with the weapon ,then He is now a threat to me and the clerk, He 's going down. I'm not going to let someone get shot while I can do something.
    While it would not be my first priority to get involved in a robbery if I didn't have to...once forced to make that decision, the warning would sound something like this, "BANG, BANG, and BANG!"
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimsum View Post
    Lets say that I am at a convience store and the gunman is pointing a gun at the clerk. Do I pull out my gun and give the gunman a warning, get gun happy or just stay put? My instructor said shooting a gunman in the back looks bad on you but he did not give different scenarios.

    My assumption is you're a customer "behind" the BG. If he has a gun (a clear indication of a deadly threat to another individual) in the Clerk's face, you could legally shoot (in FL). But you risk his gun discharging and hitting the clerk. Would you take that risk?

    My intuition is to draw and yell at him with authority to "put the gun down!" Then take it from there.

    However, according to Fl law, once the threat of deadly force against you (or the third person) has ceased, you can no longer use deadly force. To shoot the BG would be a bad thing if he's leaving--the deadly threat is over. You cannot shoot the BG when he's running away.
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  10. #25
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    The problem as I see it with calling a warning or waiting until BG turns toward you is that your gun is not a death ray. The BG will probably still have plenty of opportunity to shoot back at you. Particularly if he is moving and seeking cover by the time you get around to firing.

    A cop outside the store is a different matter. I wouldn't charge in either. But in this scenario, you are already inside with an armed assailant threatening to shoot. I'm sorry but if a threat to shoot isn't a threat to life please tell me what is. Get real. A threat is a threat is a threat.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blownsvt View Post
    IMO it really should not matter. The fact that we have to worry about this stuff is not right. IMO anyone that comes into a store points a gun of any kind at the clerk or any objust in his vicinity to intimidate him into giving up the money or whatever doesn't deserve to walk out of that store anyway.
    You copied my entire post, but seemingly did not read it (?)

    My post was not about what is 'right' or deserving and just giving up money...and laws (which wholly vary by state).
    I was focused on plausible shot angle and overall odds of functionality.

    Please re-read.

    - Janq
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  12. #27
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    My job is to protect my family. Protecting myself is part of that (so I can continue to provide for them). Protecting the innocent clerk is a good thing, and I would like to do that if I could, but I'm not sure what is going on: UC cop making an arrest? A drug sale going sour? Since I can only tell with certainty what's going on with self, wife, and daughter (and presumably the other members at a church potluck), I'm less inclined to take on the responsibility in at least a partially unknown situation. Frankly, part of my overall self-defense strategy is to keep out of jail and lawsuits, so the clerk may be on his own.

    Not to mention the bad guy's backup behind me.

    Rough on the clerk, though. Not sure I would be happy with my decision afterwards, though it feels like the better of two rotten choices at the moment.

    If they start to herd customers to the back, though, I do plan on taking decisive action (armed, unarmed, claws and teeth if need be).
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  13. #28
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    Agreed Paymeister.

    All of what you stated is real world math as in addition to that I'd provided.
    It's easy to say and think yeah I'd shoot him...Harder though to deal with the multiple immediate aftermath scenarios.

    Also agreed toward being removed from an open space to an obscured space.
    That in itself is cause for red alert condition immediate action/re-action.

    - Janq
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  14. #29
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    One other fact to consider in this scenario, is that you don't know for sure if the weapon he has is even real.

    In NY it would not look good shooting someone in the back with no threat to yourself.

    And, as someone else mentioned, based on you're description, you don't even know (for sure) that it's a BG!
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    the warning would sound something like this, "BANG, BANG, and BANG!"
    Hahahaha always a good laugh, and I concur!

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