Shooting in the back - Page 5

Shooting in the back

This is a discussion on Shooting in the back within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Let's add some info to this scenario, with due respect to dimsum. As you walk up to the store, you see a man threatening the ...

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Thread: Shooting in the back

  1. #61
    New Member Array Rhen's Avatar
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    Food for Thought

    Let's add some info to this scenario, with due respect to dimsum. As you walk up to the store, you see a man threatening the little girl behind the counter with a BFG. You walk into the store with your gun pulled, hearing the man scream at the girl: "I've had it with this S#1+! Get out from behind there!"

    You fire your gun, defending the girl behind the counter, who looks like she's in the process of turning her jeans brown. The man goes down.

    The girl runs out of the store and you call 911, only to find that the man you shot was the store's owner and the girl behind the counter was robbing the place. The guy was robbed three times before and had had enough...

    Some more info... same situation as dimsum's except as you enter and see the robbery taking place, you pull your gun. BANG! The next thing you see is wife/SO standing above you in a hospital bed. She explains that you got shot by the BGs lookout.

    Finally... You see the unfolding situation in the store, go back to your car to call 911. Shortly after you're connected and explain things, you hear a BANG! and the BG runs out the store. The clerk is shot, in the belly, but keeps repeating "it wasn't enough money." The BG shot the clerk because there wasn't enough money to his liking.

    Decisions to intervene or not depend upon many things - intent: yours and the BGs; threat level: is there a gun, knife, club or rock, and is there imminent danger of it being used; possibility of escape: safe egress for yourself, the clerk and the BG, as well as the possibility of escape unharmed for all involved.

    When you attempt to intervene, you take a step into the unknown. The outcome will depend on training, skill, situational awareness, and luck. You might be able to influence the first two things, but not the last two. You have to think like a a law enforcement officer, and that's not why you got that CHP. I got mine in the hope that I never get into the situation where I have to use my exceptional judgement, skill, and situational awareness to defend myself or others. But I'd much rather be armed than not.


  2. #62
    New Member Array TallZXDriver's Avatar
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    Interesting scenario... I am sure its already been mentioned but I am not going to read 4 pages. Some things to consider: You are responsible for that bullet after it leaves that gun if it goes through the suspect ricochets off the counter through a window into a tree where a squirrel catches it and throws it into the clerks head and kills the clerk you are responsible for it. Secondly, pay attention to the other people around you, is the suspect acting alone or does he have accomplices around the store? Is the clerk complying and is the suspect backing down after he gets what he wants?

    This all comes down to situational awareness, I recently read a story about an off duty officer that stopped a hotel robbery and shot 3 gun wielding suspects. Theres only one way he accomplished this, he payed attention to what was going on around him and decided to act at the right time. Remember if you are carrying concealed you have the element of suprise on your side, action is far faster than reaction.

  3. #63
    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    TallZXDriver's got it right on - acting before you know the full situation is folly...having said that, i'll also say that the situation as presented, lone gunman knocking over a convenience store and you're behind with a CCW - it's a shoot scenario. in fact, as presented, in my state and jurisdiction, it's a no brainer shoot scenario. it's textbook in it's simplicity, complicated in the act, and messy at the end. ain't law fun?

    but, some caveats first: in my jurisdiction, IT DOES NOT MATTER if it's an airsoft gun, a hand in the pocket, a bb gun, a knife, whatever. the presence of a weapon being used in an offensive manner constitutes a valid threat. anyway, rarely do things happen so slowly that you are able to see the make and model. assuming a number of things, such as the following: you still have manual dexterity (fine motor skills are not really great in high stress environments, unless and sometimes even if trained to deal with these types of things) and a clear shot, have time to line the shot up instead of spraying, etc., you have a number of options. situational awareness CANNOT be overstated here - knowing what and where, how, how many, etc., is of the utmost importance. warning shots are not authorized. warnings other than identifying myself as a LEO will probably not be given. there will be no repeated pleas to drop the weapon, and if it turns towards me or things begin to snowball, three things: firm grip, front sight, 5 pounds of pressure.

    the defense of others is rarely going to be a murder setup; not murder, perhaps manslaughter of whatever degree depending on jurisdiction, and when unwisely performed. you can count on that firearm being confiscated by the police for all sorts of reasons. it is much wiser to observe with gun in hand, or even to call 911 and leave the phone open - the call is recorded, and there's at least some evidence should something go awry.

    now - what i would do is somewhat different then non LEO types. most departments have a rule set up like this: "when possible, identify yourself as a law enforcement officer before using deadly force." sounds reasonable, right? that can be spat out VERY quickly, and by that point, i'm locating front sight post on center mass or head if close enough. turning to face me involves NOT immediately shooting the clerk, and "BANG!" repeat as necessary until the threat is stopped. since i'd dialed 911 and set the phone down, cops should be enroute and both hands are free. *IF* i've managed to end this encounter without myself or the clerk injured, lock down the area, no movement in or out, touching as little as possible, as it's now a crime scene and things need to be done. attend to the clerk, who's probably shaken up pretty well. assess the condition of the perp. if alive, assure disarmed and no threat. *THEN* pick up the phone or call back, identify, and feed information to dispatch to responding units can take appropriate action. stay on the line with dispatch until responding units are on scene to prevent misidentification and minimize confusion. comply completely with orders from that point on.

    there is one thing i think should be cleared up - the stigma that good guys don't shoot bad guys in the back is not reality. if he poses a deadly threat to you or someone else, he should be painted red. there is no loss of face for shooting someone from behind to save another life. good guys don't always wear white hats either...SCOTUS preserves the idea that defense of a third party is cause for, and grounds to use, deadly force.

    you MAY wind up on the wrong end of a civil suit, but i can't reasonably see criminal charges being filed by competant LEOs using the situation above. but again, i stress the importance of knowing what's going on around me, thinking as i go, and knowing what my options are. focusing on the phone is very bad - focusing on "number one first" is not acceptable, and focusing on what may happen to you afterwards is out of the question. if you're there mentally, you've lost the fight already, along with potentially your life and that of the clerk or other bystanders. but this post is written by a LEO...
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  4. #64
    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    with regards to that airsoft gun - we're assuming here that you don't know it's an airsoft gun - if you're sure of it, that changes the ball game. if you're not, it's not that you're gonna ask, right? so before you post OMG messages, please remember this is written from the POV of me *behind* the perp with no knowledge of anything except "he's got a gun pointed at the clerk."
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  5. #65
    Member Array ezenbrowntow's Avatar
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    All of this discussion is great, it is part of what makes this forum so great. One point that I haven't heard made yet is this...........

    Whatever decision you make, you'll have to make it in under the time it took you to type your post. And more than likely, it'll feel even faster than that.......
    Our kindness may be the most persuasive argument for that which we believe.

    -Gordon B. Hinckley-

  6. #66
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    Legally?
    It Washington it is legal to use lethal force in defense of self, in defense of others, to protect property, to stop a felony and to stop a fleeing felon provided you have cause to believe that they would harm others if allowed to flee. So legally I would be authorized to use deadly force.

    Morally?
    "For evil to prevail all that is required is for the good to do nothing" ~ Edmond Burke
    Is pretty much is the standard for me. I am speaking only of myself not what I think or expect others to do. Only what I expect of myself, which is that I have a moral obligation and duty to stand up in the face of evil, or when an innocent is being harmed even if standing up means I will get knocked down. So I would feel compelled to act if I can.

    Capable?
    A) I pray I would have the moral fortitude mettle and clarity to do so. No one is ever sure of their courage until it is called upon, so we will know when I get there. Provided I do.

    B) The only remaining question is can I. In the context of will I be able to act without causing undo harm or less harm than the perp will do on his own. That too can only be answered once I am there. So the answer is if I can get off a clean shot without getting anyone other than the perp killed yes I would take it.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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