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Shooting in the back

6K views 65 replies 55 participants last post by  LongRider 
#1 ·
Lets say that I am at a convience store and the gunman is pointing a gun at the clerk. Do I pull out my gun and give the gunman a warning, get gun happy or just stay put? My instructor said shooting a gunman in the back looks bad on you but he did not give different scenarios.
 
#3 ·
I would not shoot until he either says he's going to kill the clerk or starts firing. Otherwise seek cover, call 911, and be a good witness.

The c-store has insurance to cover their loss of money and you may end up shooting someone with an airsoft gun and be guilty of murder.

I feel like it is impossible to prevent every act of violence but if the shooting starts you can put a stop to it before it becomes a multiple murder or mass shooting.
 
#4 ·
there are allot of variables. If it were me, I would take the shot if it were a gun man. I would most likely go verbal for a knife or other weapon. (there are a ton of variables, you have to take each particular situation into account in the heat of the moment)

Thing to keep in mind...In your position behind the gun man, who is directly in front of him? The clerk.
 
#7 ·
Gun pointed at me, that's an immediate justification for lethal force, but here in Oklahoma standing in the defense of someone else is a legal grey area. Legally I'm allowed to defend family members as if they were me, but other people it's iffy. It shouldn't be that way IMHO, but it is.

So If I thought the robber or whoever was just going to make off with some cash, I'd play the good witness. However if I felt they intended harm I wouldn't hesitate to defend someone. At that point forget the laws, iffy or not there's no way I could watch someone be attacked and not act if I knew I had the capacity to stop it.
 
#9 ·
If you shoot the BG in the back, then by reasonable assumption that would indicate you are at some degree of angle to his rear...And not to his side or front angles.
We're talking 15 degrees max.

So being to his rear as within a 15 degree angle how can you tell with surety that the bore of the gun is faced at the third party and not for example at some inanimate object such as say the floor or ceiling, which does happen?

As well how can you tell if the BGs finger is on the trigger?
This latter item is highly important. If his finger is on the trigger and you fire into his "back", you cannot at all with any reason be sure that he will not secondarily discharge that weapon as into the third party person that you believe to be on the opposite end of the bore (be that belief accurate or not).

No, I would not shoot a person such as in this scenario in the back.

If pressed though and that my only available option were to either fire or in the _IMMEDIATE_ watching the BG execute the confirmed & known GG third party ( I say confirmed & known because it cannot always be assumed that said person is in fact a GG), then I _might_ target the head with a fine accuracy aimed shot. Just know if you miss or that round penetrates the head (or his back) that you have a GG third party just on his other side as within handgun engagement range. Very high risk.

I think my first thought would be rather than to shoot to instead make a noise and draw the BGs attention as away from the third party.
Toss a can or some other object at hand as in a direction away from the third party AND as from me for the BG to turn and look toward if even momentarily allowing for a better higher chance of success shot by me, the interjector.

One must think things through, completely, before acting.

My default thought would be to 1) Get myself (!) to concealment if not cover, 2) Assess and observe looking not just at the active threat but for his backup (hyena always hunt in pairs & groups), 3) Determine the relative degree of seriousness by the active threat(s) because he having a weapon of some sort is not on it's own a clear determinant of intent to actually use it, and 4) What is the attitude and response from those around me including not just the immediate victim but others in my air space watching him, them _and_ ME too!

This is not simple 1+1=2 math.
It is instead very often a pop quiz featuring trigonometry...



- Janq
 
#18 ·
IMO it really should not matter. The fact that we have to worry about this stuff is not right. IMO anyone that comes into a store points a gun of any kind at the clerk or any objust in his vicinity to intimidate him into giving up the money or whatever doesn't deserve to walk out of that store anyway.
 
#10 ·
I'm not a cop. Apprehending criminals does not fall under my job description. My CHP didn't come W/ aBat cape. I'm not putting my butt on the line for the store's insured money.

Good witness.
 
#15 ·
If its my family, he gets a well aimed headshot w/ no warning.
Anyone else, its time to take cover and quickly weigh the options.
 
#16 ·
The only warning I would give,after determining if I have a clear shot, is " DROP YOUR WEAPON AND GET ON THE GROUND" If he turns towards me with the weapon ,then He is now a threat to me and the clerk, He 's going down. I'm not going to let someone get shot while I can do something.
 
#23 ·
While it would not be my first priority to get involved in a robbery if I didn't have to...once forced to make that decision, the warning would sound something like this, "BANG, BANG, and BANG!":comeandgetsome:
 
#19 ·
its not so much what we would be required to do as what we would be allowed to do......each state's law are different, as usual, regarding this situation....but here in the Lone Star State its the same for cops and non-cops...you have the right to intervene to save a 3rd party,
only difference is I'm required to take action...but that can be a head shot with no warning or other intervention,
me personally it would depend on the situation, where I was, how they were situated, etc,
I have confidence in my ability to take that head shot but could also try to use the power of persuasion, but I'd also want someone on the phone to 911 to get the cavalry en route
 
#20 ·
Well a very interesting scenario indeed.

If by myself: I'm going to seek shelter and be prepared to take action, dial 911 give location immediately, if it looks like it's going south for the clerk or whomever, I'd probably make some noise to take the heat off him/her throw something, smash a window anything, use my mind.

If with my wife or Grandkids: I'm going to evaluate the situation and try and get them out of their or to a safe location while dialing 911 and ensuring if it turns into a shooting, I've got the BG in my sights for a good shot and follow ups.
 
#22 ·
Depends on the way the BG is acting, I think. Certainly, move to take cover/concealment, look for accomplices, and make yourself a better backstop if possible. Obviously call 911 if you can.

I'd much rather he walks out peacefully with the money, but I also understand that that is not always an option. I will act to prevent the death of myself or obviously innocent parties if that appears imminent. I am not a security guard tasked with the protection of the money in the register, or "taking out bad guys".

Virginia law allows the use of deadly force to stop an imminent threat of death or serious injury against myself or other innocent parties.
 
#24 ·
My assumption is you're a customer "behind" the BG. If he has a gun (a clear indication of a deadly threat to another individual) in the Clerk's face, you could legally shoot (in FL). But you risk his gun discharging and hitting the clerk. Would you take that risk?

My intuition is to draw and yell at him with authority to "put the gun down!" Then take it from there.

However, according to Fl law, once the threat of deadly force against you (or the third person) has ceased, you can no longer use deadly force. To shoot the BG would be a bad thing if he's leaving--the deadly threat is over. You cannot shoot the BG when he's running away.
 
#25 ·
The problem as I see it with calling a warning or waiting until BG turns toward you is that your gun is not a death ray. The BG will probably still have plenty of opportunity to shoot back at you. Particularly if he is moving and seeking cover by the time you get around to firing.

A cop outside the store is a different matter. I wouldn't charge in either. But in this scenario, you are already inside with an armed assailant threatening to shoot. I'm sorry but if a threat to shoot isn't a threat to life please tell me what is. Get real. A threat is a threat is a threat.
 
#27 ·
My job is to protect my family. Protecting myself is part of that (so I can continue to provide for them). Protecting the innocent clerk is a good thing, and I would like to do that if I could, but I'm not sure what is going on: UC cop making an arrest? A drug sale going sour? Since I can only tell with certainty what's going on with self, wife, and daughter (and presumably the other members at a church potluck), I'm less inclined to take on the responsibility in at least a partially unknown situation. Frankly, part of my overall self-defense strategy is to keep out of jail and lawsuits, so the clerk may be on his own.

Not to mention the bad guy's backup behind me.

Rough on the clerk, though. Not sure I would be happy with my decision afterwards, though it feels like the better of two rotten choices at the moment.

If they start to herd customers to the back, though, I do plan on taking decisive action (armed, unarmed, claws and teeth if need be).
 
#28 ·
Agreed Paymeister.

All of what you stated is real world math as in addition to that I'd provided.
It's easy to say and think yeah I'd shoot him...Harder though to deal with the multiple immediate aftermath scenarios.

Also agreed toward being removed from an open space to an obscured space.
That in itself is cause for red alert condition immediate action/re-action.

- Janq
 
#29 ·
One other fact to consider in this scenario, is that you don't know for sure if the weapon he has is even real.

In NY it would not look good shooting someone in the back with no threat to yourself.

And, as someone else mentioned, based on you're description, you don't even know (for sure) that it's a BG!
 
#40 ·
That's why all the NYers move to Florida, where we're allowed to shoot BGs--even pretend ones!:image035:
 
#31 ·
I believe I may have come up with a solution for this and many other scenarios and people involved in them.

As you are going out or staying home (don't think it matters to some). Take your cellphone and dial 911. Have your finger poised to hit SEND at all times. This way you'll not have to make all these decisions.:image035::image035:
 
#32 ·
You take a class on the lawful use of force, and you take a 2 day pistol class from a reputable shooting school.

If you can't do either of those, buy The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery & The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry (Paperback)
& In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob

Carrying a handgun with the minimal training required for the permit is borderline negligent.

That's not an attack on you, just a statement of fact.

If you are carrying around a handgun, you have a responsibility to everyone around you to understand it and know it, it's rules of use and the laws surrounding the use of force owed to everyone in your presence.

With so much information and training available to you, their really isn't an excuse for people not to take advantage of it.
 
#33 ·
After all these shots and verbal warnings, no one mentioned that while you were behind the bad guy with the gun, his partner also with a gun is standing a few feet behind you and.....


Carry on.
 
#34 ·
The OP is just providing a situation, and like most times, instead of answering it, everyone keeps trying to change the hypothetical.

While all the ifs and this and thats are valid, somestimes it might be nice just to at least answer given the parameters, then provide the caveats.

After all these shots and verbal warnings, no one mentioned that while you were behind the bad guy with the gun, his partner also with a gun is standing a few feet behind you and......
It was already mentioned more than once.
 
#36 ·
In NC, If I use deadly force to defend someone who has forfeited their ability to use such force I am in big trouble. If someone starts the fight, then starts loosing, and I unknowingly shoot the victim who is now winning I get charged assault, murder, whatever. So, the state forces me to figure out who the aggressor is and whether the "victim" did anything to start it.

If it's cut and dry and I have witnessed it from the start, I might act. If I choose to act against a gunman why would I warn him? Also the law does not instruct me as to where I have to apply deadly force, just that I need to be justified in doing it. It may look bad to some, but in the immediate when I need to act I would not be as interested in that. Surviving the encounter is job one. And surviving may include hiding, scooting, or shooting depending on the situation.

I'll give you a scenario. I live in a split bedroom home. My kids are on the other end of a hallway from my bedroom. If someone gets into my home it's not a matter of if they get shot in the back, they will, period, end of discussion, no verbal. It may not answer your question, but it's one instance where I would not think twice about it.
 
#37 ·
The Florida Three Conditions

In Florida, the Stand Your Ground Rule goes like this:

  1. Are you in a place where you have a legal right to be? YES, you are a customer in the convenience store.
  2. Are you meeting force with equal force - up to and including deadly force? YES, the Bad Guy has a firearm pointed at the clerk, and therefore has established the capability and intent to use deadly force.
  3. Is the Bad Guy carrying out an Immediate Forceable Felony? YES - they are trying to pull off an Armed Robbery.
As long as these three are a YES, you are legally cleared to fire.

The question is now tactical, if and how. You are not required to retreat, so any movement is geared to taking the shot. I would fire, without any warning, as soon it safe and practical to do so, based on the assumption that as long as the Three Conditions exist, the Bag Guy is a threat to the clerk first, and anybody else (including you) until one of the conditions stop being met - i.e., they holster or put the gun away, or the leave the store to the point that they can not hit anybody if they fire.

There should be NO HESITATION as long as the Three Conditions exist. You must be willing....
 
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