A responsibility to preserve life - Page 2

A responsibility to preserve life

This is a discussion on A responsibility to preserve life within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Glockman - A what point is enough enough? One small can of OC? A large can? Learning how to fight with bare hands? (Chuck Norris ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array TVille's Avatar
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    Glockman - A what point is enough enough? One small can of OC? A large can? Learning how to fight with bare hands? (Chuck Norris ) Carrying and knowing how to use a baton or similar weapon? I could train full time for months and still get my butt whipped by some 300 lb, 6-4 BG. Many on here have chosen to use something at the more extreme end of the defensive spectrum. A gun. Some chose larger guns, some smaller. Others chose OC, some physical training, others ignorance. All have made a choice, although most (ignorance) not consciously.

    Police are interjected into situations that have already escalated. My primary solution to such situations is to call the police. I am not trained, or equipped to handle such situations. They are. They can use OC, batons, etc.

    In many instances, due to my lack of knowledge, training, and experience, I would be concerned that attempting to use OC would be increasing my odds of injury or death. Personally, survival of my family is paramount, and I won't try things that may reduce those odds.

    I do agree with your assessment of saving lives, I just don't feel your approach is reasonable for me.


  2. #17
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    Sure I agree that it's bad to take someone's life... however I look at it this way...

    I hold my life more dear then anyone in this world. To attempt to take it from me will result in the most aggressive response I can possibly give. Gun, pepper spray, knife, eye gouging or groin kicking is not out of the question I will fight dirtier then a drunk Russian kickboxer. If the bad guy values his life he would abstain.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    could we have a little more dramas please?...are there really that many people who dont see a need for non lethal defense?...

    for the uninitiated...once the choice to go to a gun is made and that gun is discharged your life will be turned upside down and even if found clean will suffer financial losses that many arent prepared for...and that doesnt count the mental anguish that follows...you may not believe it because you think youve got it under control but it isnt pretty...you might want to consult a lawyer before you make big guy talk...

    there are many situations where anything from a tactical light to pepper spray can diffuse a situation and turn it into a walk away or non event call to the police...when the gun clears leather...it gets big...

    and the stuff is effortless to carry...

    great thread glock....thanks...

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVille View Post
    Glockman - A what point is enough enough? One small can of OC? A large can? Learning how to fight with bare hands? (Chuck Norris ) Carrying and knowing how to use a baton or similar weapon? I could train full time for months and still get my butt whipped by some 300 lb, 6-4 BG. Many on here have chosen to use something at the more extreme end of the defensive spectrum. A gun. Some chose larger guns, some smaller. Others chose OC, some physical training, others ignorance. All have made a choice, although most (ignorance) not consciously.

    Police are interjected into situations that have already escalated. My primary solution to such situations is to call the police. I am not trained, or equipped to handle such situations. They are. They can use OC, batons, etc.

    In many instances, due to my lack of knowledge, training, and experience, I would be concerned that attempting to use OC would be increasing my odds of injury or death. Personally, survival of my family is paramount, and I won't try things that may reduce those odds.

    I do agree with your assessment of saving lives, I just don't feel your approach is reasonable for me.
    but apparently your skills with a gun are fully developed and do not require intensive training so youre covered...right?...

  5. #20
    Member Array TVille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    but apparently your skills with a gun are fully developed and do not require intensive training so youre covered...right?...
    Actually, no. That is the one area I choose to focus the training. on. As opposed to training in areas of hand-hand combat, chemical systems, hand weapons (batons) and similar.

    Point is simple. A gun is THE last choice. I attempt to avoid situations that require physical confrontation. Period. However, I do not avoid planning. Plan for the worst. Train for it. Hope for the best.

    Sorry if the drama in this thread is too much.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    could we have a little more dramas please?...are there really that many people who dont see a need for non lethal defense?...

    for the uninitiated...once the choice to go to a gun is made and that gun is discharged your life will be turned upside down and even if found clean will suffer financial losses that many arent prepared for...and that doesnt count the mental anguish that follows...you may not believe it because you think youve got it under control but it isnt pretty...you might want to consult a lawyer before you make big guy talk...

    there are many situations where anything from a tactical light to pepper spray can diffuse a situation and turn it into a walk away or non event call to the police...when the gun clears leather...it gets big...

    and the stuff is effortless to carry...

    great thread glock....thanks...
    don't get me wrong the first thing I have in my left hand if I get the "gut feeling" trouble is near is my pepper spray. I would rather avoid trouble all together but I can't discount the fact that trouble may find me one day. If trouble does find me I would only use non lethal means to deescalate the situation. If I'm being attacked I'm not going to be trying to think about non lethal means of getting him to stop... I'm just going to get him to stop.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  7. #22
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    You know, I have enough trouble trying to conceal my G30, much less a can of pepper spray, collapsible baton, biker chain, cut-down ball bat, Zap-'em-All stun gun, brass knuckles, and the other things I don't tell anyone about.

    A firearm is lethal force for protection against a deadly threat. Is it my desire to kill anyone who I percieve as a deadly threat? No, my intent is to stop that threat, and if it results in a BG's death, so be it. But if a shot through the shoulder works as well, than that works for me also.

    I shouldn't have to pull my firearm against an agitated hobo at a gas station, not an angry old man who wants to tell me off for crossing the white line at a crosswalk. Neither are these "deadly threats" and to use my firearm could easily be construed as misuse. I don't ever want to find myself reaching for a gun only because I have one.

    So if I felt I had an overwhelming obligation to preserve life, I probably shouldn't be carrying a firearm. I will do what I have to do to protect myself--no more, no less. Unlike some on these forems, I don't feel like I have to "waste" the BG when the purpose is to stop the threat.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  8. #23
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    Originally posted by Glockman This is especially good for a situation where you make a choice to intervene on someone elses behalf
    But since I have no intention of doing so I'll skip the OC

  9. #24
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    A few points:
    1_ I like what Glockman10mm is trying to convey and discuss. It is a very important topic

    2_ I liked what Paymeister wrote, basically that the dichotomy doesn't really exist.

    3_ Typically, as a non-LE0, we won't be involved in 3rd party problems and should try to avoid these.

    4_ Shortly after receiving my license and enthusiastically engaging in lots of target shooting and CC, I realized that something else was needed.

    I've never been quite sure what that something else should be. There are some big advantages and some big downsides to everything I could think of.

    Pepper-- might not work, can backfire if the wind get it
    Knife-- its still lethal force, might as well use the real deal, hard to use without practice and training, can be taken from you

    Other potential weapons-- flashlight, waking cane, most of us would look out of place with such things; screw driver and wrench quickly get back into the fairly lethal category.

    Martial Arts training-- iffy with big guys, trained guys, natural fighters, multiple attackers, needs lots of practice and effort to really get proficient

    Bottom line is that we need an array of tools for different circumstances and each person has to make a very individualized determination of what those tools might be.

    In my case I have decided against a knife. I do like pepper spray but have serious reservations that it might cause an escalation and not stop a situation.

    I also like MA, with all the reservations that go with that, but as an aid to getting out of a situation or dealing with a close encounter till the gun can come into use.

    Best defense for most of us non-LEOs is to make sure we ain't where the trouble is at. I've lived on earth nearly 70 years and with only one or two relatively minor events, I've managed to not be where the trouble is happening. I hope to keep it up.

    For the young people-- stay out of bars and you will increase your chance of making it to my age.

  10. #25
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    I have a question about the use of pepper spray in general. If you feel that spray will stop a threat why not carry and use it exclusively? As I've been told, most S.D. situations take place at close distances. If so then according to logic, spray would "stop the threat" and you would have no use for a firearm. Yet we all carry one.

    I for one can respect someone's feelings that they will carry and use spray. I'm just not one of them.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    I think it's a good idea - may stop a situation from escalating to "shoot or die", in which case, why not? God knows what will happen after you shoot someone. Always nice to avoid a homicide.
    I am not going to escalate the situation. I am not going to use deadly force to stop some bum at wal-mart from hassling me. My weapon is only used as a last resort. When or if that situation arises it is to late to worry about the other person.

    Michael

  12. #27
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    And I am not keen on stepping into an unknown situation: imagine spraying an undercover cop: he's NOT likely to say, "sorry, old chap, wrong party" - rather, he's likely to draw, then I would respond to that threat... ugly, ugly, ugly. One of my church family and a guy with a ski-mask and AK? Easy - but that's not OC time.

    I support Glockman10mm's concept, but am in the "preserve my family" camp: a bad guy is on his own. That said, avoiding the legal/financial hassles after a shooting is ALSO part of "preserve my family", but the emphasis is on protecting those God has given to my charge rather than protecting the bad guy from consequences to his actions.
    __________________

    ^^^Well put paymeister^^^^^^^^+1



    But, I'm also thinking smarter about situations. I'm not getting into them; I'm able to deescalate them; I'm able to walk away without ego investment; I'm able to get a person to "walk down" their anger and see me as a friend to assist in helping them get what they need to get done, instead of someone "in the way."

    Of course, I have yet to meet up with a nasty criminal who is bent on destruction. At least, not since wising up. So, a bit of that is luck, too.

    Still, I know that how I deal with things is more assertive, stronger (more firm), less willing to tolerate BS, less willing to get anywhere near a situation with high potential for risk, and I'm able to work with the other person to deescalate. In all of those types of situations, I'm unwilling to use any force at all. None is needed.

    And if the techniques fail, to the point of the BG going ballistic on me, then I'm fully prepared to use the tool I have brought. I simply have engaged a different "weapon" at lower threat levels than life threatening. My weapon of choice? My brain. I'll put it up against your oleoresin capsicum any day.

    ^^^^^^^Again^^^^^^^well put^^^ccw9mm^^^^^^^^+1

    I also think Hopyard makes some very pertinent and valid points

    My own take on the issue is that say you come across a guy smacking around his wife /girlfriend in a parkinglot, or store.
    I think perhaps short of pulling her away from him, and letting him know in no uncertain terms, that the game is up, and he'd better time out untill 5-o
    gets there, you're probably gonna need a firearm if you interject yourself into a situation such as that?
    tough call to make until it goes down


    Aren't the 'good things that come to those who wait' just the leftovers from the people that got there first?
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Other potential weapons-- flashlight, waking cane, most of us would look out of place with such things; screw driver and wrench quickly get back into the fairly lethal category.

    Bottom line is that we need an array of tools for different circumstances and each person has to make a very individualized determination of what those tools might be.
    Useful points.

    I've got a cane. On the couple occasions I've been forced to fly, it's with me. On any trip, really, just tossed into the car to come along if needed. (Being a gimp has its advantages.) And, I wouldn't want to get smacked with the cane I've got, not any day of the week.

    And I've brought light, a knife. Rarely anything else.

    As you suggest, each can have its place.

    Above all, which work well, which can be mastered, which will combine with a person's lifestyle, clothing and personal choice ... all is a very personal choice and will vary by person.

    Good ideas, everyone! Lots to think about.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #29
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    I often use a cane as my back gives me grief. On mud and in the snow it can help with balance.

    Given my size I have a cane I made myself using a 1 1/2" hickory dowel and a large brass 'hame' (the round knob top part of a horse harness yoke-piece). I am far more comfortable with the idea of responding with it than with a knife. OC might be even better given the possibility of more distance and less contact.

    Where I can carry, I do. But that's mostly weekends (sigh).
    Recently updated website: http://www.damagedphotorepair.com

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    I often use a cane as my back gives me grief. On mud and in the snow it can help with balance.

    I am far more comfortable with the idea of responding with it than with a knife.
    Cold Steel makes a couple different polypropylene injection molded walking sticks. Such as, this Irish blackthorne repro, in polypropylene: click.

    The material is amazingly tough. As a test, I let go a huge swing at a large tree trunk. Didn't put much of a mark on the stick, but it made a decent dent in the tree. It's well balanced and easy to swing hard. The handle affords a really good grip when taking aim at a target. Doesn't get a second glance during travel through airports, either. Compared to the prices for more-traditional walking sticks (which are far less practical for defense, IMO), it's not a bad deal. Street price for these is ~$21-35 or so.

    I love mine. Highly recommended.
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    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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