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Walmart or "any store" Scenario

8K views 105 replies 60 participants last post by  AlexHassin 
#1 ·
Something that I saw today made me start to wonder about a scenario that I haven't seen discussed on this website. First the story, then the question. As I was leaving my local Walmart this afternoon I saw 2 students of mine also leaving right behind me. I was out the first set of door and nearly to the outermost set (our Walmart has 2 sets of doors as you enter with some small kids rides, candy machines, benches, etc in that area) of doors. The students said hello and I stopped before going outside to say hello back. About that time, the loss prevention officer of the store caught up to them. He moved between them and me since we were standing about 10 feet apart and never really paid any attention to me, but kept his focus only on them...i.e. He had his back to me. He said that they needed to come back into the store regarding some items "they had forgotten to pay for." They started back into the store and I turned and continued out of the store and on my way.

The question this got me thinking about was what if the loss prevention officer had asked me to come back in the store along with them, since we were talking to each other when he walked up? What if they had wanted me to empty my pockets, if they thought I had taken something. I was carrying a Kahr P380 in a pocket holster. It doesn't look like I have a pistol in my pocket through my jeans, but it does bulge a little and look like I'm carrying a small notebook or something. If I had been called back into the store, I would have went, but what should I have done if asked to empty my pockets? Should I refuse or tell them no, because I'm CCWing.

What do you think?
 
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#2 ·
Big "ifs"- but you politely decline the "invitation." If they insist, and you've done nothing wrong, then you call 911 right now and inform dispatch that you are being detained for no reason. You have NO obligation to empty your pockets, but as a courtesy to them you may show them what's in the store bags you carried out, and your receipt.
 
#3 ·
Typical if LP stops a "customer", they already know what was taken and where it is. So, the scenario is slightly far fetched, although I'm sure it does happen from time to time.
I'm with gasmitty, though.
 
#4 ·
I don't know the policy of all stores, each stores has their own guide lines from my experience. From a security point of view, they don't stop people at random to check customers leaving the store, i would think they had probable cause... or spotted them taking something by video cameras, stores don't need to harass customers

Perfect time for a ankle/shoulder holster :)
 
#5 ·
Know your state laws.

For example the current Virginia laws are:


§ 18.2-105.1. Detention of suspected shoplifter.

A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who has probable cause to believe that a person has shoplifted in violation of § 18.2-95 or § 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103, on the premises of the merchant, may detain such person for a period not to exceed one hour pending arrival of a law-enforcement officer.

(1976, c. 515.)
and

§ 8.01-226.9. Exemption from civil liability in connection with arrest or detention of person suspected of shoplifting.

A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who causes the arrest or detention of any person pursuant to the provisions of §§ 18.2-95, 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103, shall not be held civilly liable for unlawful detention, if such detention does not exceed one hour, slander, malicious prosecution, false imprisonment, false arrest, or assault and battery of the person so arrested or detained, whether such arrest or detention takes place on the premises of the merchant, or after close pursuit from such premises by such merchant, his agent or employee, provided that, in causing the arrest or detention of such person, the merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, had at the time of such arrest or detention probable cause to believe that the person had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods or merchandise. The activation of an electronic article surveillance device as a result of a person exiting the premises or an area within the premises of a merchant where an electronic article surveillance device is located shall constitute probable cause for the detention of such person by such merchant, his agent or employee, provided such person is detained only in a reasonable manner and only for such time as is necessary for an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the activation of the device, and provided that clear and visible notice is posted at each exit and location within the premises where such a device is located indicating the presence of an antishoplifting or inventory control device. For purposes of this section, "electronic article surveillance device" means an electronic device designed and operated for the purpose of detecting the removal from the premises, or a protected area within such premises, of specially marked or tagged merchandise.
If I were carrying unlawfully, I would not allow myself to be detained if I have not shoplifted anything.
 
#6 ·
What you do is totally your decision. They cannot forcefully detain you, nor can the search your person. As for the gun, if your legally carrying it, there is nothing they can say or do about it (legally).
 
#7 ·
§ 18.2-105.1. Detention of suspected shoplifter.

A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who has probable cause to believe that a person has shoplifted in violation of § 18.2-95 or § 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103, on the premises of the merchant, may detain such person for a period not to exceed one hour pending arrival of a law-enforcement officer.

(1976, c. 515.)
Hm. Says, "...may detain...", and the next quote says I can't sue him if he uses force and holds me:

...shall not be held civilly liable for unlawful detention, ...false imprisonment, false arrest, or assault and battery...
But it doesn't appear to say I have to comply, does it? I mean, I'll bet there are laws that say I have to do what a cop says ("Stay here", for instance), but this almost suggests that if they can't/don't tackle me and drag me back into the store, I'm home free.

Thoughts?
 
#21 ·
But it doesn't appear to say I have to comply, does it? I mean, I'll bet there are laws that say I have to do what a cop says ("Stay here", for instance), but this almost suggests that if they can't/don't tackle me and drag me back into the store, I'm home free.

Thoughts?
In Virginia, you do not have to comply (e.g., you can run away), but you better not physically resist unless you are sure you can convince the court that the merchant did not have probable cause. If the merchant can establish probable cause, any physical resisting that you do could result in a battery charge. You cannot claim that you used force in self-defense to resist false arrest if the merchant had probable cause to forcibly detain you . . . even if you are ultimately exhonerated.

Again, this is just in Virginia. I don't know about Georgia.

Rob
 
#8 ·
This has been hashed over in many threads here and answers always seem to be both state specific and situation specific.

Bottom line: Don't go to a back-room. It is never safe to do that.

Stand where you are, phone 911, and wait for LEO.

Cooperate with LEO, inform you are carrying so there won't be misunderstandings of the lethal kind.

Your choice, but I would let LEO search since you have taken nothing and done nothing wrong.

You will leave in one piece, store security will survive the day, and if you are still unhappy with what happened your lawyer can deal with the rest after the fact.

If necessary, tell security you will peacefully stay right where you are until a real officer arrives. Having said that (and make sure witnesses hear it) stand your ground. Judging from the many discussions here in some states you might have to comply with store security, and if the security is an LEO working a second job, things might be different. Otherwise if they touch rather than fight start yelling FIRE. Physical resistance and armed resistance should be reserved for out of control and clearly illegal actions amounting to assault with intent to harm.

Since no one can know all the laws, the relevant case law, and since these situations are highly variable as well, the best think is to be cool, be cooperative to a reasonable degree, but stay put until LE arrives.

FWIW, I think this scenario tends to fall in the "What IF" category that is a bit too far out there. It is worth thinking about it, and these incidents do happen, but are relatively rare. Stores seem to prefer to lose a few bucks on an item then to face a long and costly legal confrontation over their actions.

Never thought about it before, but Gunsite's comment, "Perfect time for a ankle/shoulder holster :)" makes good sense. I may start to rethink my negative view on them.
 
#9 ·
Well, when my wife and I were 16, we were leaving Walgreens as a store employee stopped us after exiting the front door. He wanted to "take us to the back and search us" We were kids, I was from waaaaaaay out in the country and had no idea what to do. Luckily for us, and older man was walking past and told us not to go to the back. He then asked the store employee what the problem was. The employee said my wife (then girlfriend) had put something into her purse. (SHe had not). SO the older man said to look in her purse right here. The employee did, nothing was there and we left.

Thanks to the old man from 25 years ago.

Here's what I'd do-no store employee is going to search me. If he wants to search me, 1. I will continue to leave 2. If he is very persistant,we can call the cops, if he tries anything physical I will stop him. I will not be taken to the back.
 
#10 ·
Over 90% of the stops at a Wal Mart are triggered by clerk failure to swipe the RFID chip. The remainder are due to observations by store security. Usually they check your bag and receipt and then have the rfid chip neutralized.
 
#13 ·
^^^^^^I think Hopyard and maddyfish are on right track^^^^^^^^

I don't think going to the back is a good Idea; call the police and wait

"Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it. Right is right, even if nobody is doing it."
St. Augustine
 
#14 ·
Forgive my ignorance but why is going to the back such a terrible idea? I agree that they should not search you forcefully but is not going to the back out of fear of personal injury or does it have to do with liability/lack of witnesses?
 
#18 ·
Hidden back rooms



There have been rare instances in which folks have been detained and assaulted in hidden back rooms; or statements coerced.

Stay where there are witnesses.

The store might not like a spectacle at the front door, but you don't like being alone with strangers who are not your friend.

LEOs might not be especially impartial in these situations, but at least they are better trained, likely to follow pre-approved protocols, and much less likely to act out of a big man attitude and malice.

Plus, they can legally take possession of your gun; something you should not let out of your control to anyone other than an LEO.

You can almost bet store security will want to take your gun from you once in the back room, and that act by itself could turn a minor misunderstanding into a major fight.
 
#17 ·
Assuming you have in fact done nothing wrong, calling the police would seem to be the prudent thing to do. However, once you are out the door, they will usually not persue you. It may seem to most people to be brave and good to chase down the bad guys, but in reality, most corporate policies don't permit employees to physically detain or restrian anyone. Too many chances for lawsuits for assault, and potential danger to the employee involved.
Generally just show them your reciept and bag, and if that does not satisfy them, decline further searches and either go on your way or call the police.
 
#22 ·
What I got out of your question was the fear of the weapon being discovered. Not being accused of shoplifting or anything like that.

If that is your question i'm not sure what would be the best action to take. Would it be best to call the police? Then when they arrive explain to them in private that you are armed an prefer that no one else needs to know?

Michael
 
#23 ·
That was my concern. I was legally ccwing, but didn't want anyone to know. As I said in my original post, If I had been the one they stopped, I might have gone back into the store, but in no circumstances would I have gone into a back room, office or anywhere else not visible by the public. If I'd have gone back in, it would have been to just inside the main store where I know they have cameras watching the exits.
 
#24 ·
Update:

I asked the student what happened once they were summoned back inside the story. They were taken to a back room and told they had to take off coats, extra clothes, etc and basically prove that they didn't have any items.

I shared some of the comments posted here about never going to the back and telling them to call the police.

The student mentioned that once inside the LP guy asked them who I was and if they needed to bring me in as well, so the information that has been posted will help me too, should a similar incident happen again.
 
#30 ·
Update:

I asked the student what happened once they were summoned back inside the story. They were taken to a back room and told they had to take off coats, extra clothes, etc and basically prove that they didn't have any items. .
High School, Female, 17-18.

I see a lawsuit coming...
 
#25 ·
Loss prevention can take a hike. The law is on my side and I intend to use the due process that we all are taxed for. I don't want some yuppie that is falsely accusing me of stealing a box of teddy grams or frisking me trying to find something that isn't there. The police dispatch and a police officer is the only people I would talk to if the LP employee attempts to detain me.
 
#26 ·
Question... Are these high school students? College? Middle school? Basically, what age range? I would think taking minors into a back room and telling them to take off any article of clothing would be a very bad move on their part. I'm not sure what the laws are, but it just seems like a very bad thing to do on the store's part.
 
#28 ·
had this happen one time not too long ago. A new WM store opened and I was inside. Noticed the LP dude spotting me about 10 mins after I was inside. Had no reason to be looking at me, as I was not stealing anything.

After I paid for my things, he and I were walking into front area of the store(where rides, games, vending is). He confronted me and told em I needed to remove what was inside my pants. I asked him what was he talking about? He said he saw me take something and I needed to remove it from my persons. I said, really, and where did this alleged theft occur? He said I should know, and started to grab for my side, where i was CCW'ing. I stepped back and told him I would not do that if I were you.
He said, I will call the cops. I said, "better off that you do. Because if I remove my 40 caliber handgun from its holster in here, YOURE gonna need more than cops to help your dumb azz."

He was taken aback, and aksed me what was I meaning? I told him that I had a concealed weapon on me and he dam sure didnt want me to bring it out in public, and I asked him if that was what he "saw" on my persons. He said I bent over in the automotive dept, and he saw the outline of something that was bigger than a cell phone. I said, he needed glasses, and left the store. I had a crowd of people around us at this point, and alot of people were not too happy with his reactions to the situation.

And to jvteach77- girls underage in the back room is a definate NO NO!!! Its a good thing I am not their parents. I would have that retards job, and then have some off site words!!!
 
#32 ·
What the ???? Since when is a person not allowed to carry anything larger than a cell phone on his or her person? That lump could have been anything you personally own and have every right to possess. Keys, a multi-tool, glasses case, flashlight, medical equipment, the list goes on.
I would have had some fun with this clown, after I made the call to the police before he did.
Just once is all it would take for someone to touch me in public, before they wished they hadn't.
If the highly talented loss prevention folks at WM want to see a receipt for what is in the bag, I will show it to them, when asked nicely. Key word, nicely. You attempt to grab me or pat me down, it won't be pretty. And forget about asking me to go to a back room and remove any part of my clothing.
Unless LP actually sees someone take something that they didn't pay for they have no reason to stop you if you have a bulge in your clothing.
 
#31 ·
I doubt they would sue, but they will be better prepared on what to do and not do if it ever happens again.
 
#33 ·
Obviously the idiot has never seen a Maxpedition M-1 or H-1 Waistpack before!
 
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