My fiancee works at a moderately sized accounting firm in North Dallas, and recent events have given us both cause for concern as to her safety.
Her building is rather large (20 stories) and is in a highly populated area along a major highway and has an attached parking garage. It seems like once a month or more she comes home from work with a story about how someone was robbed on the way to their car after hours. Recently one of her coworkers was robbed at gunpoint in the parking garage on her way back from lunch by some brazen thief who forced her to drive him around to the front of the building where he made his escape!
I am very concerned since they often work long hours, especially during tax season, and she has to walk to her car in the evening when most of the building and parking garage is deserted.
We have often discussed the possibility of her getting a concealed carry permit and buying a handgun for defense, but the building she works in doesn't allow firearms of any kind inside. I imagine this is because there is a bank on the ground floor and a large diamond brokerage firm on the top two floors, but in my mind that only heightens the danger and need for protection for everyone else.
I am at a loss as to what to do in this situation. Her and her coworkers are careful to leave the building in groups when possible, but in my mind there is a limit to how effective this kind of practice is, not to mention the times when the might not be anyone else around.
Any advice from the members here would be greatly appreciated!
Unfortunately it is posted. She also does have pepper spray in her purse, but that does not make me at all comfortable considering that people are being robbed at gunpoint.
I don't know, but I suspect it is one of the reasons that their company is planning on switching leases to a different building sometime next year. Until then :frown:
is there a security presence at the building?...a concern should be expressed to human resources immediately...the company may make arrangements for security escorts...
otherwise it would be smart for your wife to get together with others and leave in small groups...the chances of being approached in a group is less than individual...the arrangements could be made easily using company bulletin boards or email...human resources may even participate by helping inform the other employees...
a non-lethal form of self defense should also be employed immediately...stun gun, oc spray, and asp is not a bad idea...hitting somebody with oc buys time...time that can be used to take them out at the knees and hands with an asp....its easy to conceal and very effective...
asp is not a bad idea...hitting somebody with oc buys time...time that can be used to take them out at the knees and hands with an asp....its easy to conceal and very effective...
I have a similar problem. I'm a woman, and there have been a rash of robberies, rapes, and beating happening on campus. My university does not allow firearms or knives on campus (not even an unloaded locked gun in the trunk!).
So, here are a couple things I'm doing/considering:
Women's self-defense course. I need the tools to be able to fight off someone who is larger/stronger than me. Pepper spray. That should be good enough to get me a good distance away from the attacker. Baton. They make these telescoping batons that are surprisingly easy to carry (make sure it's not considered concealed carry in TX). Defensive key tools. I can't have a knife, but there is nothing preventing me having a dull spike on my keys. You wife should be walking to her car with her keys in hand anyway, so have he make a fist around her keys with the spike between two knuckles. A couple strong jabs to the eyes, throat, gut ought to slow him down enough for her to get away.
An ASP is a terrible idea. It takes a lot of training and understanding to use of effectively. Used improperly, you a can easily kill someone you don't intend to including yourself.
^^^^Maybe she means one of those little wooden stick things? Starts with a K. kubatuon? Maybe. Agree on Batons though, hard to use, even harder to get quality training with one. The guy they sent us still advocated hitting large muscle groups.
It's always better to come to the realization that doing nothing is not a decent plan before you have a life changing/life ending event instead of after. So I commend you for not waiting until your girlfriend was an actual victim.
Still, a lot of people wait until they feel they are in a crisis situation when they come to the realization they are vulnerable and need to be able to help themself. And then they want instant and immediate gratification.
Obtaining a firearm, concealed carry permit and the like are good goals to work towards however there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. Not having any firearm experience naturally puts someone way, way behind the curve just starting out. Then add in a little desperation at having something to protect you now.... and you can see how a lot of people get themselves into trouble in the long run.
I would start out, looking into some less than lethal options of dealing with sudden encounters first. I will point out that ANY tool you choose or use really has limited applications and many of them are down right dangerous if you do not get proper training in their use.
Whether you are using a small impact tool like a Kubaton, OC pepper spray, tazers or even expandable batons, if you do not have the proper training, it is much easier to get hurt,or get into trouble with it, than having success using it against an attacker. Some of those items, if not all of them may be illegal for civilian use in any given State, so you need to know your State laws as well. For example, some States allow OC spray to be used by citizens, but is illegal to use OC spray which has a dye marker in it. Or sprays over a certain concentration may be illegal.
Likewise, it is exponentially true with the use of deadly weapons like handguns and other firearms or knives.
This is extremely disheartening to hear for someone who feels they are in a crisis situation and wants immediate gratification however it wouldn't be prudent not to point out that whatever you do.... It is always best to be properly trained in what you plan to use.
There is more to personal protection than just arming yourself and there's a lot you can do beyond just trying to go back and forth from the car in groups.
Living in Texas with Texas knife laws, I would get my girl friend a lock blade folder with a very thin grip so it would be easy to conceal.
Have her hide it on her person, like clipped inside her waste band so if these attacks turn every turn to rape or kidnapping she has something to fight back with up close and personal.
If she will? have her work with it until muscle memory is second nature with her.
I agree with the group walk to the car idea. Also low tech things like:
Take off the high heels and replace with joggers. Comfy maneuverable clothing.
If she carries a purse limit the contents and or make up a throw away wallet that has a small amount of cash.
Get a small air horn from a marine store. They are inexpensive and deafening and attract attention.
Carry a small bright flashlight use it to look under your car.
Chose a parking place carefully.
Phone handy. Have another throw away phone?
After thinking more about this, I would just stay in a group, and be willing to wait a little bit at work to get a group formed.
A letter to HR expressing concern for personal safety and requesting security escorts or lockboxes for securely storing defensive weapons once you enter the building so you can pick them up when you leave and not have to walk through a parking garage unarmed. It's not fair for them to essentially force employees to walk through the garage unprotected once they're off the clock. They should either provide security or a secure lockbox set-up...especially with so much documented criminal violence occuring. If they do neither, they could be setting themselves up for an ugly legal issue if something happens to someone.
the build mangers should really think about some security patrols or report this trend to the police to increase patrols.
Has there not been a discription of the person? if it happens so offten.
also maybe walking out in groups. kinda like car pooling, u gotta find people leaving around ur time and walk out together, if u have to wati 15 mins before the next emplyee leaves then it can work out..
i donno how the parking situation is, but on my last 15 min break i move my car closer to the door i will be exiting, i leave the building when its dark.
How far away from her work do you live?
Maybe you could go there and act as an escort a day or two a week, and be there when a large group of them can leave together, and maybe the knuckledraggers casing the lots will get nervous with all the attention and get fed up and move on to easier pickins.
Maybe switch off with a few other like minded husbands/boyfriends?
Pain in the butt, but may have some merit,
Never argue with idiots - they'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
Great idea!!! A rotation of husbands/boyfriends escorting groups (perhaps while OC) might change the way BGs view this picking ground and they may move on. You never know.
Taser C-2 consumer model, unless they are operating in groups it would give her an edge and it is NOT a firearm; you will have to see how Texas law defines them in relation to your 30.06 law.
The civilian model discharges for 30 seconds; drop and run, he will be riding the lightning for 30 seconds giving her time to escape. Plus after 30 seconds I rather doubt he will be in any condition to run after her. File a police report, send it to Taser (if the unit is not recovered) and they will replace it.
The civilian model discharges for 30 seconds; drop and run, he will be riding the lightning for 30 seconds giving her time to escape. Plus after 30 seconds I rather doubt he will be in any condition to run after her. File a police report, send it to Taser (if the unit is not recovered) and they will replace it.
Great idea!!! A rotation of husbands/boyfriends escorting groups (perhaps while OC) might change the way BGs view this picking ground and they may move on. You never know.
An ASP depending on the state is considered a weapon. Some states might limit it to LEO only and/or you have to have a CC license to carry one. Check your state laws before buying one. Plus unless you practice with it there is a good chance one could find it being taken from you.
Most states allow knifes under a certain blade length to be carried.
In my opinion though a knife is dangerous to the user unless the user is willing to spill someone elses blood.
I'd say a talk with HR about safety and liability will fix the problem.
Definitely put concerns in writing to HR, requesting security/escorts etc, and deliver the letter in a way that gets proof of delivery, this will make them think in terms of documented legal liability which may press them to act sooner.
+1 on OC spray.
Also, if at all possible, she should make arrangements to do after-hours work from home. There are good telecommuting platforms now such as GoToMyPC, etc.
As the fiance can you help too, such as drop her off and/or pick her up at the main entrance (not the parking garage)?
Wow, thanks for the great feedback everyone, some really good ideas there.
Apparently the building has security patrols but they must be few and far between given the number of incidents. I was thinking of seeing if she could park in the building parking lot that is facing the frontage road. Any thoughts on if that would be any safer than the parking garage?
They don't call them ambush alleys for nothing. But it's largely a case of individual circumstance as to which is actually safer. More people well lit is generally safer. The empty lot with the lights off isn't going to be better if the group is leaving to the garage. Does the garage have a gate with extra security? If anything these incidents should be getting her Situational Awareness up. Not only should she have her keys in hand before stepping out of the building but the key to start her car should be in hand and ready, no fumbling through at the door. I agree with the shoes too, even if she needs to leave nice ones in her desk for the workday. And cell phone nearby to call for help, but not in hand texting or conversing (sign gaurd is down) or visible as a theft target.
Of course if it's feasible I think dropping her off and picking her up, when you're already armed, esp if her hours are being pushed to less common ones that might work better for you; would be the best option.
Massad Ayoob was on Personal Defense with the key ring devices, similar to the tactical pens, there's training courses out there for them, and training is going to be the key as to whether or not it's going to be of any value, and it's supposed to be good for everywhere except schools, planes and courthouses. It's something that could be practical, but you'll need to do some independent investigation.
Ready access to a Tactical Light with a strobe feature in a dark parking garage late at night, would be something to consider to startle and confuse the senses of an attacker long enough for her to get away or initiate self defense action. That extra second or two might make a huge difference in the realization of poor descion making in victim selection.
Oh, and I still think she should get the permit anyways, even if she's not carrying at work there's other times she might need it, and it's good education to have on the laws in your state and the use of firearms, which I'm assuming by your presence here are readily accessible even if she doesn't have her own yet.
i would also recommend pushing the building management to offer some sort of escorted walk to the vehicles at night. this would ideally be done by the security force of by some sort of organized program. the least she could do is ask a co-worker to escort her until the situation gets addressed.
I do carry an aluminum AA flashlight because of its usefulness as a multi-tasker. My work doesn't allow me to carry so effective use of common legal items is pretty much a given. However carrying around a flashlight that is almost 2 feet long is a little inconvenient:image035:
bladenbullet
I understand where you are coming from but I still have to insist that a gun will generally be more effective with an untrained individual. Since we are talking about touching distance (the asp requires you go get up close to use) accuracy does not come into the equation. Since it does not require much strength to operate a gun and all the punch comes from a chemical rather then the user's muscles.
Something about women you have to remember they may not have the upper body strength to drop a BG with an asp even after he is suffering from OC spray. OMO The leg is a strong part so If a woman is up against a BG and are within a few feet she could just assume a swift kick in the groin as effective or more effective then wacking him with a baton. :twak: :nutkick:
i'm not going to argue with you and i guess i shouldnt have used a gun as an example in comparison requiring training because everybody here thinks it is so easy...and a gun isnt an otption in this situation...but i'll mention it again...
an asp can be carried openly and does not require a draw to utilize...kicking someone in the groin is very effective but requires you to expose a very necessary part of your anatomy to the attacker at close range...your foot and leg...an asp can be used at length and can break an outreached hand, leg, elbow, etc....in addition it can totally immobilize or even kill someone if the strikes are in the correct places...and they are accessible...
the woman is caught in a situation where she needs some sort of self defense and a gun is out of the question unless she wants to risk her employment and possible legal issues depending on the building in question...my personal preference is a weapon that can inflict grevious damage to an attacker...nobody here would have a problem shooting an attacker but i have been warned that used improperly an attacker could be killed with an asp...swell logic..i want her to get home to the family she left this morning and have little regard for the safety of the attacker...and it doesnt take a course in kung fu to learn how to wield an asp effectively...
If the company has refused to recognize her the right to protect herself, then they are taking the responsibility to protect her. Make this much clear to HR and demand that something is done. If the garage does not have security to keep out unwanted people, then demand an escort out to your car. Document this correspondance and make the company declare what its policy is and their plan to protect their employees. Don't stop until you are satisfied with the measures they impliment. Your family's safety is worth the hassle of pushing corporate buttons.
The other ideas for her own training and protection are good as well. It is always good to learn more and be prepared, but make the company live up to their stance that they will protect you since they won't let you protect yourself.
How many times has this actually happened? Have some real facts and I would have her and a few of the other worried employees talk to management. After all, they have to walk to their cars alone and at night sometimes too. Second can you come and escort her when she has to leave late? Maybe you and some of the other significant others can do this on a rotation basis. Lastly understand this, her company will really miss her if she is killed. They will even send a very nice arrangement of flowers to the funeral. That's about it. Her safety is ultimately up to her. I don't think she has the years it takes for martial arts training. Just something to think about.
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