Lots of firsts here...scenario about a car backing into you intentionally
This is a discussion on Lots of firsts here...scenario about a car backing into you intentionally within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, my first post here. Lurked a while at PDO, decided to try this out. Yesterday was my first day carrying, as I just recieved ...
June 3rd, 2006 02:05 PM
Lots of firsts here...scenario about a car backing into you intentionally
So, my first post here. Lurked a while at PDO, decided to try this out. Yesterday was my first day carrying, as I just recieved my CCP about 3 days ago and my college doesn't allow carrying, of course. So there's two firsts for ya.
Anyway, I'm heading to Renton, so I decide to carry. I'm in my car with 2 other people, and we're stuck on Montlake traffic, heading to 520. So we're squeezing along, and we come into a merging intersection, one which is basically a Y-intersection, but converging, not splitting. So I'm in the left lane of the left side, just rolling at a lovely 2mph through the stop light (which was green), when I notice a school bus has decided to finish going through the red light (to be fair, he was far enough past his line, he should have kept going). So I decide I have two options, I can either keep going and try to get in front of him (not too hard), or I can wait and make that decision. So I hold off a while, and notice that the bus driver isn't really making any effort to notice me, so I decide to back off, and pull in behind.
Keep in mind that this bus was at a red light when it decided to go through the light, when you read what happened next.
So I let the bus go, and start to pull in behind it. The guy behind the bus (who had gone through the green light by this time, since we've moving so slow) decides he's not going to let me. We play a little game of chicken, when I finally decide to concede. I'm a little ticked off, of course, and I honk to let him know my displeasure at his maturity. I mean he was stuck at a red light, sees our lane go through, but decides he needs to force me behind him anyway.
He decides, for whatever reason, that I was unjustified, and with his hole arm shaking, tosses me a middle finger. I'm only too happy to return it, still not too worked up over it, just a little frustrated at him. Then he throws his car in park, and continues to flip me off. I think this dude had about 20 years on me too, but that's a different story.
The scenario comes next. After he realizes that he's holding not only me up, but the rest of commuter traffic, he starts to shift his car. His reverse lights come on, and that's where my question comes in.
What if he had decided to hit me in that moment? I was armed, and he would have demonstrated the means to do me harm, have the tools to do me and my passengers harm, as well as attempt to carry out the means.
My first reaction (after I made sure nobody was seriously hurt) was that I was going to draw my weapon and circle to his hood, ordering him out. I would have had one of the other passengers call the police, but until then, I wasn't going to let this guy go. And if he did decide to shift the car into drive, I would have been within my rights to discharge my firearm, I believe, as he would have been intentionally trying to run me over.
But after I thought about it for a while, like another mile or 20 minutes, I don't know if I would have been able to do that, legally. Morally, I feel I would have been justified, but I'm curious as to what anybody else would have done?
And FYI, he didn't do that, after he put the car into reverse for a split second, he shifted into drive and that was the end of that.
June 3rd, 2006 02:25 PM
If your going to sink to this level and escalate situations you might want to re evaluate your decision to carry. As a CCW licensee it behooves you to deescalate situations not buy into an escalating spiral
He decides, for whatever reason, that I was unjustified, and with his hole arm shaking, tosses me a middle finger. I'm only too happy to return it
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
June 3rd, 2006 02:46 PM
Redneck repairs beat me to it.
When you carry, you must be extra-polite, and extra-tolerant of the idiots you encounter in daily life.
Because if you ever are in a deadly force encounter, you want to come across as the victim of a sudden violent attack, not the willing participant in a conflict that escalates to deadly force.
The second scenario is a path to prison, or as Massad Ayoob says "proceed to Mongo" (Mongo being your new, large, hairy cellmate).
As to the car thing, IMHO if he bumps your car (and if he is just a few feet away, he's not going to do much more than that), you are not in imminent jeopardy of death or serious bodily harm.
June 3rd, 2006 02:47 PM
+1. Carrying is a huge responsibility. You carry to protect you and your own, not to be Dirty Harry. Cell phones are your friend in this instance.
I'm not trying to be harsh, but you need to read some of the posts in the Scenarios forum and you'll see the hot-headed, knee-jerk reaction will only serve to get you into trouble. No faming intended here.
Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
June 3rd, 2006 03:09 PM
None taken, I appreciate the opinions. That's why I'm here, and glad it never escalated.
Originally Posted by san antone rr
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking foward to drawing a weapon. That's why I was questioning my reaction later. I'd rather never have to draw it, and I'm a rather defensive driver.
The few feet we had between us was a rather large distance, at least a car length, probably closer to 2.5. I like to leave a lot of room between the car in front of me, just incase of things like this. But even if he had decided to drive into me, I had nowhere to go but foward.
I will admit, returning the finger was definitely not my finest moment. At the time, I was still fairly calm, and should have thought better. I wasn't in anger, honestly, though he probably assumed it was.
Quite honestly, the fight-or-flight/adrenaline instinct didn't kick in until the reverse lights kicked on.
I was far enough away for him to do some potential damage, and my passenger was sitting quite close to the airbag at this time to make leg room for the person in the rear.
Just a life lesson, I guess. Thanks for the opinions.
June 3rd, 2006 03:12 PM
I should have stated that my post was not intended to be a flame of any sort, just an opinion.
Welcome to the forums, by the way - I hope you'll like it here. Lots of good folks willing to offer advice and commentary.
June 3rd, 2006 03:15 PM
not a problem, I didn't take it personally. I can see where you were coming from. I am still green behind the ears when it comes to carrying. I might be able to shoot fairly well, but I haven't done more then carry, in the trunk, to and from the range when it comes to dealing with people and being armed.
Originally Posted by MattLarson
June 3rd, 2006 03:43 PM
Welcome to the forum.
Got to say I agree with what has been said so far.
Have to add that if it did go as far as you took it your place is IN the car getting his tag number and dialing 911. Let the Police stand in front of his car with guns drawn if they want too, that isn't your job or place.
Now, if he starts breaking into your car and you CAN'T escape.........
EOD - Initial success or total failure
June 3rd, 2006 08:31 PM
I'll only add another small 2c - repeating what has been said really - once we CCW we are even more obligated to avoid trouble and achieve de-escalation of situations where possible.
Cultivation of good situational awareness is part of the deal - seeing and hearing earlier so as to avoid involvement - or at least be a good witness.
We have the ultimate tool in our possession but only as last ditch use - we need to always be aware of our responsibility and learn to even swallow pride too. The bird we get flipped - does not need returned - better to make distance and go on our way - that sorta thing.
Re-analyze carefully your carry motives and mindset - be Mr responsible and Mr polite - and only ever consider drawing your firearm if you know you can say with truth - ''I was in fear for my life'' - most else does not wash.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
June 3rd, 2006 09:56 PM
What they said, you are armed, and since I have been carrying I have let a lot of total Dumb A$$'s go with a big smile and a hello wave from me. as to being backed into, not a problem, big truck with a big push bar on the front, the kind designed to take are real good hit with out doing anything to the truck. I back into parking spaces, and the front end has been hit several times, all it does is set off the Viper security system, and they leave some paint behind.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
June 4th, 2006 05:14 AM
i would have to disagree with you 100%, i don't think you would have been justified in using your weapon to fire and kill this individual, he was only a few feet away, you guys were both in cars, and he was stopped, he would have only been able to get enough momentum to get up to a few miles per hour before he would hit you, he was in the heat of the moment, so were you since you would have flipped him off back, yes he was trying to cause harm to you, but he was because he was angered at you for honking at him, more than likely he wasn't aware that he made you mad, and you waving your gun would only make you be charged with assault regardless of the situation at hand, don't let road rage enter you into a jail cell, its not worth it, just let those stupid things go! Plus you had dozens of witnesses to tell the police he hit your car on purpose. Must be the first day carrying that got to you.
June 4th, 2006 10:27 AM
Being legally armed carries the greatest responsibility. Trading single digit salutes is childish at best and always tends to esculate a situation that is better ignored. Keep your cool and stay calm.
June 4th, 2006 10:50 AM
Great attitude and acknowledgement of your knowledge and limitations conerning CC. You'll do well here with your eagerness to learn. This is a great place to learn, talk about scenarios, tactics and weapons.
Originally Posted by BigDaddy5
By posing the question you did, it enabled the community to give honest feedback and, hopefully, steer any reader in the right direction who might have had doubts about their own reaction in a similar situation.
We have ALL been new to CC before. And we all have had to study, learn and accomodate the changes that we had to make in our lives when we took upon ourselves the responsibility to excersize our God given right as free men and women to bear arms.
Welcome to the forum.
"We must remember that one man is much
the same as another, and that he is best
who is trained in the severest school."
~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War
June 4th, 2006 01:56 PM
One great piece of advice I've picked up is when you take your gun with you, leave your middle finger at home.
June 4th, 2006 03:42 PM
One thing you said in your post is that, the reverse lights only came on for a split second. If his car was an automatic, they would've come on when he pulled it from park to drive, just a thought.
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