Disparity of Force Scenario (Concerning Leukemia)

Disparity of Force Scenario (Concerning Leukemia)

This is a discussion on Disparity of Force Scenario (Concerning Leukemia) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Disparity of Force Scenario (Concerning Leukemia) I was visiting my oncologist a couple weeks ago. While there I told her that even though I had ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array hothoog's Avatar
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    Disparity of Force Scenario (Concerning Leukemia)

    Disparity of Force Scenario (Concerning Leukemia)

    I was visiting my oncologist a couple weeks ago. While there I told her that even though I had CML I was still training in MMA for cage-fights. She told me she didn’t think it was safe but that she would double check. A few days ago she called me and told me that the drug I am taking Gleevic has a tendency to cause hemorrhaging. She said if I get hit (punch, kick, etc.) you could get a bleed out and die without knowing it. After the initial mourning at the loss of my favorite hobby/stress reliever, I began to wonder about the self defense aspect.

    Until this month if attacked by an unarmed assailant I planned to defend myself without needing the use of deadly force. Even though I am only 160lbs, I have had enough experience on the mat to likely be able to protect myself. My issue is that, due to my condition, if I get struck (even by a fist) I could be killed; so I wonder if the “disparity of force” rule likely applies against an attack from an unarmed assailant. If not how should I view this new twist in my self-defense plan/use of force matrix?

    I am anxious to read what you, especially the legal beagles, have to write about this.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    well if you did get in the situation and did us lethal force, i whould imagian that getting you doctor up to testify to that whould put you in that catogory. best advice is talk to a lawyer in your state.
    sorry to hear that

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    IANAL, but as far as I'm concerned that likelihood of hemorrhaging puts you at a severe risk for serious harm should you get in a physical altercation. While your physical fitness may be called into question, the fact that blunt force now poses a greater risk to you than it does to the general populace I would think that puts you in a position to use deadly force against what - to you at least - could also be deadly force.
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    Member Array b1780's Avatar
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    I know what you mean. I am recovering from Hodgkins Lymphoma and when I was going through the treatment I was in a similar position. I spoke with a lawyer regarding this, and yes you would be justified. Just make sure it passes the reasonable man test.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid.

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Also, have you spoken to your doctor about what kind of hit you'd have to take in order for it to possibly be damaging? What I'm getting at here is if you shoot, are you at risk for hemorrhaging from the recoil of the gun?
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    Member Array ScotWarrior's Avatar
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    wow - that sucks man. i am very sorry to hear that. is there an alternative medication that wouldn't have that side effect? what are the choices available out there for CML?

    okay - two things that might muddy that reasonableness test. gee thanks, lawyers. one, if this scenario was to play out, a reasonable man might feel like a simple strike able to bleed him out is cause for lethal force. BUT your doctor will be needed to justify, then he / she will most likely be rebutted by someone in the other side's pocket. there are never any cut and dried issues, sadly.

    two, and here's the rub, it COULD be argued that the the disparity of force in gun vs punch, even with the medication having that side effect, is too much. that's a legal issue, and some jurisdictions are not as defense friendly as others, unfortunately. i am in agreement with you, in that when told that, your posture ahs to change slightly to meet the new threat. it's just that the attorneys could dicker over whether or not your change in posture affected your decision making skills too much. because, for instance, a car collision might have the same effect., or something. which is a silly argument, but there it is.

    i would tend to believe that most people would see it as a huge disparity of force until the doctors were on the stand in the courtroom. for sure, the liberal media would turn you into a gun nut with an itchy trigger finger. ironic, huh, since your first option mentioned was non-violent...

    my hat's off to you, sir, and i've gotta tell you, you're a brave man for facing it down like that. regards.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" ~Patrick Henry

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1780 View Post
    ...Just make sure it passes the reasonable man test.
    Bingo. ^^

    But IMHO the hemorrhage health item is of no real basis toward this specific view, self defense.

    You choose to go and participate in a gladiator sport. It could be boxing, football, sport martial arts or whatever.
    You would not be able to meet the reasonable man test if you entered into an event/sport and wound up being 'hit' only to turn around and use lethal force on the basis of OMG I could bleed out for being hit. Fail.

    But take what the doctor provided as information specific to a given condition of application, and apply it to self defense on the street.
    On the street if a person is going to swing on you ND you did _not_ engage that person in the activity to cause it then well not only does a person with such a health condition meet the reasonable man test...But so does most _anyone_!

    We have covered this here numerous times before about persons being punched and as a result dying from the impact or falling and hitting their head for being punched and dying.

    No note or alert from their doctor nor doctor on the stand support is necessary/required, because the issue is not that the person is more susceptible or not to being harmed by an impact force (punch)...But rather the reasonable man assumes and knows that most _any_ manner of impacting a person open hand or with tools can and does result in serious/significant injury if not immediate death.

    At the end end of the day this medical condition is a moot item, as specifically related to that of self defense on the street.
    Having such a condition does not reasonably make the man any more valid toward use of self defense than a person who does not have same condition.

    As with most everything else the key here to focus on is context.

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    OMO.............
    absolutely it changes things for you

    you now have a health condition that you and your doctor could testify to, that if you were engaged by someone using physical force and were hit/kicked/punched/injured you were more likely to hemorrhage more/faster than others without your condition/medication

    now of course....this could vary by state
    but most states have the reasonable word in their law, (such as Texas) where a person reasonably believes they are about to have deadly force (causing death or serious bodily injury) used on them, they are justified in using deadly force

    somebody punches me in gut/face...yeah it will hurt, yeah it will bruise but 99.9% of the time thats it, nothing more, better in a few minutes minus the bruising
    you on the other hand get hit in the same manner causes you to bruise much with much greater volume, blood vessels rupture where mine did not, and you bleed out internally

    vast difference between the 2 situations where our injuries are concerned

    I think its akin to a 70 yr old man being assaulted by a 25 yo man, the 70 yo will be justified by disparity of force due to his ability vs the assailant, you will be justified due to your ability being limited now also

    but of course, I'm not a lawyer and you need to check with folks where you live
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    ...I think its akin to a 70 yr old man being assaulted by a 25 yo man, the 70 yo will be justified by disparity of force due to his ability vs the assailant, you will be justified due to your ability being limited now also...
    Disparity of force between ages is not due to physical conditioning such as frailty, but rather ability to avoid and/or defend ones self period.

    Not that any of this matters anyway, as defense of self is not contingent exclusively on their being a disparity of force. That is just one of multiple reasonable reasons that a person may have immediate need to defend them self. Even as against another person of equal size, strength, condition and age.
    There is no law anywhere stating that a person must stand there and be assaulted and take it because there is specifically a lack of force disparity.

    For more on this reference the following...

    DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum > Related Topics > Reference & "How To" Forum
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ard-times.html

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  10. #10
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    I'll point out a very tragic but all too common injury, the simple hit to the head that caused the skiing death of actress Natasha Richardson recently. Apparently that is a very common injury. Drugs can radically compound the seriousness of that type of hit. If bleeding occurs, brain surgery is frequently required.

    An elderly (90+) relative was on a blood thinner (Cumadin, aka "rat poison" by a nurse) and had a simple fall. She hit her head on a thickly padded and carpeted floor. No broken bones or other outward signs. But that meant a mandatory CatScan that showed minor bleeding on the brain. It's been at least three weeks now. We'll know later today whether surgery is necessary to stop the bleeding and drain the blood from the site. So yes, with certain drugs in the equation, even a bump can be potentially fatal.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    You can't apply that to just the drug though...The person is 90 yrs. old, and female at that. ^^

    People older than 60 who take a fall of any sort are highly susceptible to injury of all sort that a 15 or 30 or 40 yr. old could shrug off be they on any med or not.

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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Actually, the neurosurgeon explained that the vast majority of such surgeries he performs are on patients under 40 and he didn't qualify this by the use of blood thinning agents either. The "right" hit in the wrong place can be fatal, regardless of age. Old age simply narrows the tolerance of injury and the strength to endure conventional medical treatments.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Thus my point.

    Applying the gravity of the injury to the drug/med is not logical considering the issue can and does occur to most anyone, per your account of the doctors commentary, and is well known to generally be an issue for any a person regardless of med as within that age bracket.

    Never mind for women of that extreme age who generally and ny then largely are suffering from thinned skeletal density in all places, including the skull, thanks to the also well known real effects of osteoporosis.

    - Janq
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hothoog View Post
    ...I was still training in MMA for cage-fights...

    ...Even though I am only 160lbs, I have had enough experience on the mat to likely be able to protect myself...
    INAL - That right there will come back to haunt you IF you end up in a SD shooting with an unarmed assailant, regardless of the assailants age, size, or strength.

    You have a documented set of physical defensive skills way above the average "Joe", regardless of your health or medications.
    Sticks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Disparity of force between ages is not due to physical conditioning such as frailty, but rather ability to avoid and/or defend ones self period.

    Not that any of this matters anyway, as defense of self is not contingent exclusively on their being a disparity of force. That is just one of multiple reasonable reasons that a person may have immediate need to defend them self. Even as against another person of equal size, strength, condition and age.
    There is no law anywhere stating that a person must stand there and be assaulted and take it because there is specifically a lack of force disparity.

    For more on this reference the following...

    DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum > Related Topics > Reference & "How To" Forum
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ard-times.html

    - Janq
    Janq, I don't recall anyone saying that defense of self is contingent on disparity of force. We're merely commenting on how someone could be justified going to deadly force based on their inability to defend themselves with non-deadly force due to an age difference/physical condition. Just as you say, their inability to defend themselves in this situation. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post or I'm misinterpreting your intent in your post.

    Disparity of force merely means a person would be justified in the use of deadly force in certain situations where a different person would not be legally justified using the same force in the same situation.

    Also, disparity of force CAN be due to physical condition such as frailty. It can ALSO be due to other things, but what I stated was that I agree with the OP that the condition he has does play a role in disparity of force.

    We LEOs are trained in disparity of force under numerous scenarios and they all point back to the same thing....you had to use deadly force to stop the threat because you were not able to do anything else to keep from getting hurt/killed.
    If this means the BG is bigger/stronger than me, if I'm outnumbered 3 to 1, if I'm tired out from chase/fight and am in jeopardy, or if I'm injured and am now facing grave danger...these are all disparity of force situations where deadly force is applied justifiably.

    Someone that has a documented physical condition that would place them in great danger if they were to physically fight someone, would be completely justified in using deadly force to defend themselves where a person without the condition would not be justified using deadly force in the same situation. This falls under disparity of force-they are not able to defend themselves from this threat without resorting to deadly force. At least thats my opinion and how I would vote if on a jury.

    If a person (LEO or not) that has some physical limitation that causes them to be outmatched against a BG....they are not able to face the threat using physical force and they are in jeopardy=disparity of force=deadly force justified. At least thats the way it works here in Texas.

    I hope the OP and others can understand that there are numerous ways that disparity of force can be applied, and just like Janq said...you don't have to depend on disparity of force to defend yourself....if you're justified you're justified...period.
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