Feelings about friends that carry? A scenerio

This is a discussion on Feelings about friends that carry? A scenerio within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This scenario actually happened and it got me thinking and thought i'd share will all of you wonderful folk. Recently, I was put in a ...

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Thread: Feelings about friends that carry? A scenerio

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    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    Feelings about friends that carry? A scenerio

    This scenario actually happened and it got me thinking and thought i'd share will all of you wonderful folk.

    Recently, I was put in a very uncomfortable situation, here's the background.

    A few buddies and me, about seven of us, were enjoying the nice warm weather to hit our area the other night. We were at my friends place, a third story apartment in a college town, he lives directly above the busiest bar in said college town.

    There are thin alley ways in between all of the houses to allow access to the back, so fire escapes are made pretty interestingly, instead of being levitated from the ground they are simply stairs cases that go straight down (no zig zag pattern), they're pretty sturdy and safe and well maintained, but they make for very easy access to the rear of many peoples apartments.

    Well we were all hanging out on the fire escape, sharing stories and what not, and we see at the end of this long alley way a group of about 7 or 8 guy, all of the same ethnicity (not important to the story) covered in jail house tattoos wearing tall tees, one wasn't wearing a shirt. They all looked drunk or high, really out of it, stern faced and aggressive looking.

    Immediately I'm much more alert than I would normally have been. Large groups of drunk kids wasn't unusual but these kids seemed to be starring at us at looked like they were looking for trouble. Two of the kids start walking up the fire escape towards us and all of us stand up, definitely a breach of privacy though technically the fire escape is the general properties jurisdiction and not our own, (who knows they could be tenants using the back door right?)

    Well they come up to us and accuse us of spitting over the roof and it landing on them. This was impossible because they were coming from the bar entrance area (about 15 yards away from us) which is in the back of the building. They claimed they saw us do it, and asked us if we had a problem. I really didnt feel like any of us had to explain anything to these punks, and I kindly just informed them, "No, we did not spit on you and we have no problem, do you live here?" They said no, so my friend who lived there simply said "Could you please leave" they stared at us for about 15 seconds and then started back down the stairs and the alley way to rejoin their friends.

    One of them turned around and made a gesture, with his index and pointer finger pointing at us and the thumb sticking up as if the hammer of the gun, then made a recoil motion.

    This sent me on HIGH alert. The kids then walked away and there was no further incident, though I was pretty shaken up that the situation was going to go south.

    The reason I am posting this is because, I was not the only one carrying concealed, a friend of mine was also carrying concealed, and I noticed his hand very close to where he keeps his .38. He's been carrying for about 5 years, he's of sound mind, intelligent, not known to go off the handle or anything, but the entire time I was almost as concerned with him drawing on these kids after the hand gesture as I was with the immediate threat.

    I felt that if he had drawn, the situation could have escalated, all of the the aggressors could have drawn, forcing me to draw as well. I felt like in this situation there were pro's and con's to having a friend carry as well.

    Of course more firepower, another responsible safe CCer by my side, but simultaneously someone who's rational thoughts I am not in control of, I felt as if I was no longer in control of my option to brandish my pistol if he decided to pull his firearm out and THAT scared me.


    Now obviously the situation diffused itself, no one was injured, I didn't have to draw, my friend didn't draw, and the punks left without incident. But it got me thinking about how I felt about friends carrying concealed. I'm just posing some questions here to see how you guys feel, despite everything I have said, my ultimate feeling is I am more comfortable with more responsible carriers than if my friends weren't carrying.


    Also, food for thought, would any of you have drawn your weapon after the punk made the gesture / threat of drawing a firearm?

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  3. #2
    Member Array Tbonedemon's Avatar
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    You're not responsible for your friends actions. You should really talk to him about the way you feel, just so you can be on the same page. A hand gesture shouldn't have elevated your threat level. Soon as they were trying to pick a fight you should treated the crowd as if everyone could possibly be armed and and watched there hands, let your friends watch there eyes and do the talking. Plenty of people make like they have guns to be tuff, thats not enough to be unprofessional. Well, tell your friend he has to match what ever the crowd presents. Others will chime and be better to explain things better. JMO.

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    Member Array RockStrongo's Avatar
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    I would have been on high alert as well.. you should talk to you buddy about how you feel. I don't fault him for having his hand near his weapon as I would have done the same... but would not have brandished a weapon unless I saw they guy reaching in to a waistband or something.

    The way you described this sounds like West Chester..

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    ... but simultaneously someone who's rational thoughts I am not in control of, I felt as if I was no longer in control of my option to brandish my pistol if he decided to pull his firearm out and THAT scared me.
    I realize it's the guy's apartment, but he's located right next to (above) a bar. That sort of place obviously draws a certain element, which you found that day. That's avoidable. Something to consider, if deciding to hang out and shoot the breeze, as to where the best place would be for doing that.

    I think y'all handled it well. You spoke simply and calmly about the claim of your actions. You did not threaten them. You did not get up or make moves that could be misinterpreted. You kept monitoring them. (Ideally, you left as soon as losing track of them.)

    As for having another person being armed ... yes, it's something you don't have control over. If that person draws, you certainly don't need to. And unless it were to escalate to a deadly threat, you wouldn't be justified in doing so anyway, irrespective of what the other(s) in your group did.

    You need to be responsible for you and your own actions. You're not there to be their savior, their armed little buddy. Nor are you to be drawing your firearm and using deadly force merely because someone else mistakenly takes that route. Bad situation, that.


    Also, food for thought, would any of you have drawn your weapon after the punk made the gesture / threat of drawing a firearm?
    No, I definitely would not. You were there, and I was not, but it doesn't sound to me as though this situation was anywhere near the level that would justify the use of deadly force against them. I'd be on high alert, certainly, since several factors and actions/words by that group would have combined to make it a very worrisome situation. At that moment, I likely would have been ensuring my jacket would not be an encumbrance if it were to become necessary to draw. But, justifying deadly force against them? Nope.

    A.O.J. -- Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. Some factors to consider about the justifiability of self-defense.

    That's just a general guideline. Know the laws in your state very well, with respect to the use of force, specifically the use of deadly force.
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    Draw on a gesture? No!
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    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockStrongo View Post

    The way you described this sounds like West Chester..
    Kutztown, actually, which has had a huge jump in crime recently. Someone was murdered on main street last year, a couple of stabbings, and actually that night 20 minutes later someone was beaten within an inch of their life and left laying in the street.

    I guess I should have mentioned the increase of violence in my OP, it contributed to my high alert level. Obviously though, we didn't draw, was looking for others opinions though. Thanks guys!

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    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
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    Can you define this a little better?

    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    I noticed his hand very close to where he keeps his .38.
    In that instance I probably would have had my had close to my firearm as well. In a ready position. Unless you know I carry, you would not necessarily think 'gun'. Maybe something like the 'interview' position. It's not overtly threatening or aggressive, but does get you closer to what you may need.

    I don't think I'd fault your friend. As others have said, talk to him about it. Just try to do it as a curiosity, not a judgment.

    In the scenario you've described I would not have drawn, just stayed watchful and ready. I would have done my best to appear non-aggressive.

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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    I agree with the other guys above. Draw on gesture? no.
    If they would have tried something to warrant a draw, and your friend would have drawn, then ofcourse "being they did something to warrant a draw" if you also drew yours, I think two of you drawing down on them would have made them think twice about proceeding.
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  10. #9
    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    Can you define this a little better?



    In that instance I probably would have had my had close to my firearm as well. In a ready position. Unless you know I carry, you would not necessarily think 'gun'. Maybe something like the 'interview' position. It's not overtly threatening or aggressive, but does get you closer to what you may need.

    I don't think I'd fault your friend. As others have said, talk to him about it. Just try to do it as a curiosity, not a judgment.

    In the scenario you've described I would not have drawn, just stayed watchful and ready. I would have done my best to appear non-aggressive.

    Holdcard
    He keeps his snub IWB at 3:30, he hand moved from a relaxed position to a kind of "hands on hips thing" kind of like mother was yelling at you with her hands on her hips. It was threatening, his hand wasn't on the gun and it wasn't visible, but it was less than an inch away.

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    I'm glad everything worked out ok for you. You are responsible for your own actions, not those of your friends. If either of you had drawn your weapons, the situation could have gone downhill fast.

    However, had the individual reached for something after making that gesture, to me, he might have wound up dead. I would rather that not happen, but if one of us is going to go to court to defend our actions on why we killed the other guy, it's going to be me.
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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    This scenario actually happened and it got me thinking and thought i'd share will all of you wonderful folk.

    Recently, I was put in a very uncomfortable situation, here's the background.

    A few buddies and me, about seven of us, were enjoying the nice warm weather to hit our area the other night. We were at my friends place, a third story apartment in a college town, he lives directly above the busiest bar in said college town.

    There are thin alley ways in between all of the houses to allow access to the back, so fire escapes are made pretty interestingly, instead of being levitated from the ground they are simply stairs cases that go straight down (no zig zag pattern), they're pretty sturdy and safe and well maintained, but they make for very easy access to the rear of many peoples apartments.

    Well we were all hanging out on the fire escape, sharing stories and what not, and we see at the end of this long alley way a group of about 7 or 8 guy, all of the same ethnicity (not important to the story) covered in jail house tattoos wearing tall tees, one wasn't wearing a shirt. They all looked drunk or high, really out of it, stern faced and aggressive looking.

    Immediately I'm much more alert than I would normally have been. Large groups of drunk kids wasn't unusual but these kids seemed to be starring at us at looked like they were looking for trouble. Two of the kids start walking up the fire escape towards us and all of us stand up, definitely a breach of privacy though technically the fire escape is the general properties jurisdiction and not our own, (who knows they could be tenants using the back door right?)

    Well they come up to us and accuse us of spitting over the roof and it landing on them. This was impossible because they were coming from the bar entrance area (about 15 yards away from us) which is in the back of the building. They claimed they saw us do it, and asked us if we had a problem. I really didnt feel like any of us had to explain anything to these punks, and I kindly just informed them, "No, we did not spit on you and we have no problem, do you live here?" They said no, so my friend who lived there simply said "Could you please leave" they stared at us for about 15 seconds and then started back down the stairs and the alley way to rejoin their friends. Up to this point I would say all is going as should be expected. My compliments on your calm demeanor, even though you were obviously in a heightened state of SA...

    One of them turned around and made a gesture, with his index and pointer finger pointing at us and the thumb sticking up as if the hammer of the gun, then made a recoil motion.

    This sent me on HIGH alert. I agree..would have been in the same alert mode The kids then walked away and there was no further incident, though I was pretty shaken up that the situation was going to go south. Isn't it interesting what an adrenaline rush will do to your system.

    The reason I am posting this is because, I was not the only one carrying concealed, a friend of mine was also carrying concealed, and I noticed his hand very close to where he keeps his .38. He's been carrying for about 5 years, he's of sound mind, intelligent, not known to go off the handle or anything This should have been a big comfort to you. Knowing he is an experienced concealed carrier and that he has a level head on his shoulders should have reassured you that you had a comrade in arms should the situation turn to horse puckey, but the entire time I was almost as concerned with him drawing on these kids after the hand gesture as I was with the immediate threat. I don't fully understand you worrying about your friends actions. As you stated he is of sound mind, intelligent, and not known to go off the handle. Your concentration should have remained TOTALLY on the kids that were blowing off steam. Why would you think your friend would possibly draw without more provocation than a hand/finger gesture?

    I felt that if he had drawn, the situation could have escalated, all of the the aggressors could have drawn, forcing me to draw as well. In my opinion, YOU lost control of YOUR SA based on worrying about your friends actions. You need to have the mindset and SA that will insure that YOU react in a proper manner, if and when necessary. When the SHTF, you don't have the luxury of worrying about someone elses actions, only yours, unless of course you have trained together for just such a situation which is highly unlikely and obviously not the case in your description. I felt like in this situation there were pro's and con's to having a friend carry as well. In my opinion, the only con's in the situation of your friend being armed, was your lack of trust in his judgement and feeling that only YOU would make the right decision if and when the time came. The pro's speak for themselves....two guns are better than one gun.

    Of course more firepower, another responsible safe CCer by my side, but simultaneously someone who's rational thoughts I am not in control of, I felt as if I was no longer in control of my option to brandish my pistol if he decided to pull his firearm out and THAT scared me. The option to BRANDISH your pistol??? Might I just point out that if you pull your weapon based on your assessment that the situation requires it, BRANDISHING should NOT be your intentions. Your intentions should be defending your life based on discerning the need to do so. Brandishing WILL get you shot. If all that crossed your mind was brandishing, then keep your weapon holstered until you need it.


    Now obviously the situation diffused itself, no one was injured, I didn't have to draw, my friend didn't draw, and the punks left without incident. But it got me thinking about how I felt about friends carrying concealed. I'm just posing some questions here to see how you guys feel, despite everything I have said, my ultimate feeling is I am more comfortable with more responsible carriers than if my friends weren't carrying.


    Also, food for thought, would any of you have drawn your weapon after the punk made the gesture / threat of drawing a firearm?A gesture is simply a statement of one's opinion of a particular situation and does not warrant drawing a weapon. You watch their hands...watch their hands...watch their hands...if you see a weapon clearing then it's time to MOVE OFF THE X and defend yourself......JMO

    I have done my best to address the OP in BOLD above. Just my opinion on the scenario presented.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    How about talking to your friend to go through different scenarios so that you guys are on the same page? Maybe do some training together..? This will eliminate your anxiety in any future events.
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    OK, friends hand was near his firearm. Where were your hands? If it was near your firearm what makes your friends decision an issue? If it was not near the firearm, why not? If you're in high alert and someone is making threatening gestures why would you not attempt to gain a slight advantage on accessing your firearm? Or were you doing something else? Personally, given the story you present I don't see the issue with what your friend did. He was preparing himself for the worst, but did not escalate the situation. Ultimately it ended up being a non event and everyone walks away, which is good.

    Drawing because of the gesture? No way.
    Preparing to draw? Quite possibly.
    Does he have my absolute undivided attention? Absolutely.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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    First Sgt...

    Excellent post and analysis. I've got nothing to add to that except to reaffirm your good post.
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    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    I guess what I should have made more clear wasn't, "hey, how'd I do guys?" but was to give you an example of a situation and then have everyone chime in on how they feel about THEIR friends CCing, not an analysis of how I responded to my friend.

    The option to BRANDISH your pistol??? Might I just point out that if you pull your weapon based on your assessment that the situation requires it, BRANDISHING should NOT be your intentions. Your intentions should be defending your life based on discerning the need to do so. Brandishing WILL get you shot. If all that crossed your mind was brandishing, then keep your weapon holstered until you need it
    .

    It's a figure of speech, sorry to confuse the terminology.

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