Etiquette vs. SA

Etiquette vs. SA

This is a discussion on Etiquette vs. SA within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK, I have been thinking about this for a while. Here's the set up:both my wife and I are right handed, I carry strong side, ...

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Thread: Etiquette vs. SA

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    Etiquette vs. SA

    OK, I have been thinking about this for a while.

    Here's the set up:both my wife and I are right handed, I carry strong side, she either does not carry or purse carries. If with a purse, over her right shoulder. We walk with her on the right next to me on the sidewalk, etiquette is normally that the woman walks on the inside. No problem walking through the neighborhood. We also usually hold hands when together (I know, old married people should not have PDA's ).

    Now we go to an urban setting. We pass oncoming pedestrians on the right. The street has inset doorways, steps, etc. So, I am really pushing her towards a potential threat. If confronted, I must reach for my weapon which again pushes her to my right, possibly towards the threat in a doorway, etc. Also, her purse is on her right shoulder which makes it an easier snatch and grab scenario.

    I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. The best way would be to have her walk on my left, closer to the street so I can access my weapon and keep her away from hidden threats, but it is against our "nature"-50+ years of habit/teaching dies hard. What do you folks do when out as a couple?


  2. #2
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Hello,

    I have not been married or alive as you but here are some of my thoughts.

    1. Have her carry her purse between you. May not be comfy but takes some snatch and grab opportunities. Or carry her purse cross body if the strap is long enough.
    2. Use code words and body language/hand signals to let her know to move to your opposite side (moving behind you) so you can engage your threat.

    Example- say something low enough for her to hear like bogie two doors up. At that point she casually moves to your left.

    Tug on her hand or pass it behind your back to your left hand. I do this with my wife as well or be "sneaky" stop and window shop for a minute then casually turn and walk on with her on oposite side.If no window to shop check purse, phone,pockets, etc.

    Not gospel just some ideas.

    Jason

    practice turning to face target that is on your strong side.
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    I agree with the potential code words..Or just a flat statement: "Get Behind me now"... Consider having her switch purse to left shoulder and cross body for the strap (she would have to practice accessing her weapon, if purse carried, by cross body draw)...Train TOGETHER for just such a scenario, so that your movements will be refined PRIOR to an emergency situation. I would continue to have her walk to my inside. I see no reason to change based on the options that you have... JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Member Array Sledzep01's Avatar
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    I would avoid a street where I did not feel safe 100% as much as possible. If said street must be used, and there is a possibility of violence, why are you still caring about etiquette?? Leave her purse where she feels comfortable carrying it. She has been carrying it and trying not to have it taken for years. She should have that course of action covered. Would you want her asking you carry on the weak side?

    Sled

  5. #5
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Avoidance

    Avoidance is a good idea but I think the OP was meant for the what if scenario, we all know that bad things happen to good people. and it can happen anywhere. BUT good idea about the comfort of carry.
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    Some very good ideas posted above. However, although I am old enough to have been taught to open doors for ladies, always walk on the street side with the lady on the inside, etc., times have changed a bit with women's lib. I have actually had women tell me they can open a door themselves, and act insulted that I was holding a door for them! So, IMHO, SA should take precedence over "old fashioned" etiquette. The rules of behavior have changed over the past 20 or 30 years. My wife walks on the outside of me on occasion when the situation warrants it, and I feel no less "gentlemanly" as a result. Actually, we commonly will switch positions without regard to SA situations as a matter of course. I don't think it is a "rule" any longer in today's society. I've had women hold doors for me! Be safe out there--the rules for the BGs have changed too--there are more of them and they are more violent!
    Live to ride, ride to live. Harley Road King And keep a .45 handy Kimber Custom TLE II

  7. #7
    gtv
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    I agree with SA taking precedence over etiquette. For one thing, the practice of men taking the street-side came about in the middle ages when second floor occupants of buildings emptied their chamber pots by tossing the contents out of their windows into the street -- thus the gentleman would be more likely to be struck by the flying filth, rather than the lady who was more sheltered closer to the buildings. Since open sewers in the streets are no longer a common method of waste removal (well, in most places anyway), I see no reason as to why you should not adapt your habits to fit the changing threats posed by a changing society.
    "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he'll spend all his time in the basement tying flies and neglecting his personal hygiene." -- Jimmy James

    "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!" -- Admiral James T. Kirk

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    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Unless it is just a short walk we will cross the street so she is on the inside and my strong side is on the street side, even if it means crossing the street twice.

    I have actually had women tell me they can open a door themselves, and act insulted that I was holding a door for them!
    I have had that happen a couple times and I respond "Pardon me, I mistook you for a lady".

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    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    My wife and I are an old couple and like to hold hands. She is afraid of dogs, though, so I always put her on the road side and walk between them and the potential threat.

    You're probably the only person in a million that even knows "etiquette" anyway, so make your own.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Don't forget that SA based on safety and protection IS etiquette.

    Chivalry isn't dead, it's just in the ICU ward.

    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Don’t mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  11. #11
    Member Array twocan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    Hello,

    I have not been married or alive as you but here are some of my thoughts.

    1. Have her carry her purse between you. May not be comfy but takes some snatch and grab opportunities. Or carry her purse cross body if the strap is long enough.
    2. Use code words and body language/hand signals to let her know to move to your opposite side (moving behind you) so you can engage your threat.

    Example- say something low enough for her to hear like bogie two doors up. At that point she casually moves to your left.

    Tug on her hand or pass it behind your back to your left hand. I do this with my wife as well or be "sneaky" stop and window shop for a minute then casually turn and walk on with her on oposite side.If no window to shop check purse, phone,pockets, etc.

    Not gospel just some ideas.

    Jason

    practice turning to face target that is on your strong side.
    Good ideas, Jason. Makes a lot of sense.

  12. #12
    Member Array twocan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtv View Post
    I agree with SA taking precedence over etiquette. For one thing, the practice of men taking the street-side came about in the middle ages when second floor occupants of buildings emptied their chamber pots by tossing the contents out of their windows into the street -- thus the gentleman would be more likely to be struck by the flying filth, rather than the lady who was more sheltered closer to the buildings. Since open sewers in the streets are no longer a common method of waste removal (well, in most places anyway), I see no reason as to why you should not adapt your habits to fit the changing threats posed by a changing society.
    gtv:

    I did not know that was the origin of this practice. Are you stating a fact or just telling a yarn?

  13. #13
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocan View Post
    gtv:

    I did not know that was the origin of this practice. Are you stating a fact or just telling a yarn?
    I think there actually may be more than one reason for this practice. If you look at middle aged architecture, which was predominantly "fortified" towns, house were much narrower on the bottom than on the top. The second floor overhung the sidewalk to maximize limited living space. This would, indeed, allow chamberpots to be emptied out into the roadway, and/or on the street-side passerby.

    Combined with this, wheeled conveyances could kick up mud onto the side-walk as well as swerve onto the same, and this allowed a gentleman to protect his "arm-flower" from harm/indignity.

    Since most social practices are shrouded in history and mythology, his explanation is as good as any other.

  14. #14
    gtv
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocan View Post
    gtv:

    I did not know that was the origin of this practice. Are you stating a fact or just telling a yarn?
    My undergrad degree was in History, with a concentration in Medieval Studies... I have seen the origins of this particular practice mentioned in several accounts. Much of what we consider "etiquette" today has its origins in the Middle Ages: a gentleman indoors and in the square (any public gathering place) always offers his left arm to a lady, so as to keep his sword arm free to defend her honor (this is why the groom stands to the right of the bride, too, in wedding ceremonies); when a couple is walking together and they pass another individual or couple, the gentleman should position himself between his lady and the other party -- this comes from the social institution of the time that the men of similar status could converse with one another, but were not permitted to address a lady without being introduced by her escort first. Even the placement of the buttons on men's clothing are situated to allow him to unbutton his jacket with his left hand, leaving his sword hand free to draw his weapon. It is fascinating, in a way, how much of our life today was shaped during that period.

    </hijack>
    "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he'll spend all his time in the basement tying flies and neglecting his personal hygiene." -- Jimmy James

    "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!" -- Admiral James T. Kirk

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    Yes, in your situation I would highly suggest walking on the other side of her.
    I'm not much for purse carry, but if its that or nothing for her so be it.
    Make sure she carries her purse across her body though, not just thrown over one shoulder.
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
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