Legal consequences/situation of drawing in response...
This is a discussion on Legal consequences/situation of drawing in response... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would think your only out would be is if you can convincingly explain how you did not draw your weapon until the thugs on ...
May 7th, 2010 03:47 AM
I would think your only out would be is if you can convincingly explain how you did not draw your weapon until the thugs on the other side started to draw theirs.
Whoever on your side who drew first, is going to have to be able to articulate at that moment he perceived himself to be in immanent danger and thus justifying his drawing in the first place. And in fact, he may very well have seen something in which you did not, which prompted him to draw before you did.
It's all going to be a matter of perspective and what each of you truly believed at the time.
But it's a very, very ugly situation and it would behoove you to find out before the shooting starts, to know who besides yourself carry weapons and know how they are going to act.
I have been shying away from "reckless" friends and relatives for quite some time now and tend not to hang out privately with people I consider reckless, or potentially reckless. However, a situation can blow up at anytime like these scenarios we are discussing and again, it's going to be a very ugly situation if people end up shooting people.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
May 7th, 2010 04:39 AM
What should the response be, legally speaking, if I'm responding to an illegally escalated and provoked situation? Eject, without contributing to the crime. If I saw a situation brewing like that, with ugly, illegal escalations being flung, I'd eject. If I was there with loved ones, I'd extricate them as well, if able. The idiots doing the escalation would be on their own. It's tough being stupid, but they'll have to learn the lesson at some point.
Of course, the way you paint that situation, it could become a spinning, whirling dust devil of a problem. Being shot at, it would be hard to not guard my own life from being taken, no matter how it started. I suppose I'd like to think that as I saw it escalating for all the wrong reasons, I would be shuffling my loved ones out the back to get away from the situation.
Reality is, it would be tough to change the course of such an ugly "mob" scene, once it got going. Which is why I try to choose my friends very carefully and don't engage in escalating actions. Can't choose family, but one can certainly choose to be a present for or absent from such activities with certain family members. And I do. One (a sibling's newly-minted "ex" hubby) is known for his drinking and bad temper. I don't see him often, and we don't do things together. He's been arrested countless times, wrecked the car (drinking) several times, and gotten ugly countless times. He's now divorced and gone. And he still hasn't learned. That remains his problem. Exactly as it should be.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
May 7th, 2010 08:42 AM
you seem to be fixated on protecting others and it is a repeated theme in your posts...to make things clear...you are carrying to protect yourself and thats what your goal should be....
Originally Posted by BigStick
this scenario is gonna make it difficult to seperate who the aggressors are in the end...its gonna be one groups word against the others depending on how many actually walk away...the only thing you are going to have going for you if you are one who walks away is clarity and an accurate description of what happened...and hope what you did looks right in the eyes of the law and a jury...cause thats where its probably headed...nothing good comes out of a group confrontation...
my suggestion is the same as the others...evaluate your friends dispositions and action/reaction if they carry...and decide who to hang with based on that...dont get dragged into something you dont want to....most situations can be handled verbally and calmed...if you hang with people who are incapable of that then youre in the wrong group already...if they are level headed then hopefully things will go your way...
watch your back and have options available...but dont let someone draw on you without being prepared...
May 7th, 2010 11:18 AM
Lethal Self-Defense is, in my State and many others, only possible if you could not in any other way have avoided the danger. You could have avoided the danger here by not "standing off", but getting the hell out of there. So, you wouldn't have a very good case to start out with. You likely could have avoided it far earlier by leaving once violence was in the air to begin with.
But if there is just a standoff, what can you do without being legally grouped with your friend afterwards? Can you draw and keep at low ready without threatening any specific person while attempting to talk/deescalate the situation?
And remaining and thinking about maybe saving someone's life in the future, is not saving someone's life. That card is not in the deck.
What you should have done is make tracks when that fight was first in the air and called 911. Cops would already be pulling up and handling this professionally. And THAT would help your friends.
Basically: you are not a cop who should be hanging out to subdue a group fight that might start - or to stay in case you could save someone's life if real violence erupts latter on, in the future. That's the job of the police. Yours is notify them after getting out of the danger you are in.
A CCW does not mean we are Wyatt Earp. It's simply permission to carry a gun. That's Gun Law. Using it is strictly Self-Defense Law, which does not even mention guns, and is the same right everyone has. We don't have more of it or special privileges in situations such as the one you present.
May 7th, 2010 01:22 PM
This falls under the three rules of stupid...stupid friends. If your friends with a guy who will pull his gun because of a verbal altercation you can expect lots of legal trouble. He is now the aggressor and no matter what happens after that you lose. Harsh words (for the most part) do not constitute a lethal threat.
Originally Posted by Hopyard
ETA: The only real world save for you if this did happen is police history. If you and your party have clean records and the bad guys have long rap sheets you'll probably be OK. The police and the DA will be more likely to believe you (and your friends) side of the story. Lastly if you friend who drew first can articulate why he felt he was being threatened with deadly force and why he drew you could be OK. It's possible (hypothically) he saw something that you didn't and initiated action.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
May 7th, 2010 03:13 PM
Self Defense & The Law class time for you...
They are usually about $50 to $125 and offered at many local shooting ranges...
It's not just bullets anymore.
May 19th, 2010 01:38 PM
+1 on Training time re: Self-Defense & The Law
XD Service .45 ACP
XDM .45 ACP Bi-Tone
Ruger LCR .38 Special +P CT
May 19th, 2010 01:57 PM
It's a tough call. I'd like to put a more realistic spin on this if I may....
Lets assume we are having a "Family" picnic in a public park. Say one of the children get into an altercation with a child from another group also visiting the park. People from the other group confront your "family" and are extremely hostile. No matter how diplomatic or appologetic your group is the others will not back off and are now acting in a threatening manner. Lets pretend that its now becoming physical (perhaps a shove). The situation is now highly escalated from potential threat to imminent! Someone from your family threatens to call 911 but the aggressors will not relent and a pistol is drawn in response from your group. In turn a pistol(s) are drawn from the other side....
Now what would I do in this situation? I would empty my 13 round mag into the other group. Reload and repeat if need be. When the shooting stopped ,Id tend to the wounded and wait for the police and paramedics. I cant see any other way of handling the situation in my hypothetical senerio.
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