Can you legally shoot AFTER a rape?

This is a discussion on Can you legally shoot AFTER a rape? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In NY you can use deadly physical force to prevent/terminate rape and effect an arrest(custody) or escape from(custody) for rape....

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Thread: Can you legally shoot AFTER a rape?

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    In NY you can use deadly physical force to prevent/terminate rape and effect an arrest(custody) or escape from(custody) for rape.
    One more step and it's on!

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  3. #47
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    "Why did you shoot him so many times?"

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    Empty the Mag or wheel

  5. #49
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    Some of you are wrong. Dead wrong.

    Guy breaks into house, goes into room and rapes woman. He's still in the room/house when she shoots him? Then it's a justified shoot. It doesn't matter where she shoots him. Back, front, side.

    No DA with any intelligence is going to bring charges against a woman who just had a home invader break in and rape her and the rapist is still in the room/house with her.

    The guy is still a threat as long as he is in that room/house. If even on some chance he's actually getting ready to leave she doesn't know that.

    Some of you get hung up on shooting someone in the back but as long as your legally justified in shooting you can hit someone anywhere on their body. Yes there is extra scrutiny in regards to people being shot in the back but a woman in this situation has nothing to fear from the police or DA. (unless she lives in a anti-gun city (like NYC) and they charge her for having a weapon)

    Now this only applies to strangers. There would be a lot of extra scrutiny if she knew the person or was married to the rapist.

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirage2521 View Post
    Would you please cite what piece of Florida's castle doctorine makes you think this is true.
    776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

    (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

    (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : flsenate.gov
    As long as the guy is inside he's a threat and you can feel free to shoot him.

    After he's raped her he sure as hell is a threat and she can feel free to shoot him.

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    Rapist still in the house? He's already committed great bodily harm and may still be in the process of another forcible felony.

    776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
    She's still covered.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    In my state, Oregon, a citizen is legally authorized to use force up to and including deadly force to protect against imminent violent felony against a person. That includes rape, and rape would legally justify the use of deadly force if a person deemed it necessary to stop the commission of the violent felony.

    While there are no "stand your ground" type statutes in Oregon, the "reasonable man" standard and the use-of-force statutes essentially authorize a person to use a reasonable amount of force to stop the crime. Shoplifting would hardly justify use of a firearm to stop, in Oregon. But avoiding any violent felony certainly would.

    But there is no legal statute (in Oregon) that covers an individual citizen effectively punishing a felon for a prior deed (even seconds earlier). The only real exception is the "fleeing felon" type of situation, in which a new, imminent violent threat exists and requires force to stop it from happening (ie, a child or elderly family member coming into the home when the felon is heading downstairs to ostensibly exit). That's a new felony, and the use-of-force requirements apply to it just as they did to the original felony.
    ^^^^^^Understandably^^^^^

    But for anyone who does not reside in a stand your ground state, could they ( the victim, while holding the firearm), YELL at the perpetrator, and as they turn,,,,well you get the idea


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    Last edited by oneshot; May 8th, 2010 at 02:01 PM.
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  8. #52
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieShoot View Post
    As long as the guy is inside he's a threat and you can feel free to shoot him.

    After he's raped her he sure as hell is a threat and she can feel free to shoot him.



    Rapist still in the house? He's already committed great bodily harm and may still be in the process of another forcible felony.



    She's still covered.


    WHo said she was in a house? You are adding to the question information that was not provided.

    I re-read the OP and I guess she did say "take the gun out of dresser" so we can assume she was in her house. I was not arguing whether or not she could shoot, simply stating that "castle doctorine" does not apply if you are not in your house or car.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
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  9. #53
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    Ok guys gonna have to play devils advocate here. A lot will depend on state statutes, the outlook of the investigator and the Prosecutor.
    MAKING THIS CLEAR THIS IS FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT AND NOT WHAT I MAY WANT TO HAPPEN JUST PRESENTING A VIEW FROM THE OTHER SIDE IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR STATE STATUTES.

    We cannot assume that the rapist intended to do any further harm to the victim as far as anyone knows he was going to fall to his knees seek forgiveness and dial 911 himself.

    Once the victim is armed, if the suspect then attempts to commit another felony i.e. second rape, battery and so on then she would be justified, again dependent on the state law, to use deadly force. The comment that was made about shooting in the back, it would not meet any criteria as far as self defense the suspect posed no immediate threat to the victim and she would be crucified if not in criminal court but in civil.

    Again depending on state laws, the scenario would/could be compared to this:
    A person has stated I will kill you or physically attacked you. He now gets behind the wheel of a car and drives towards you at a high rate of speed. It is a small street and you dont have much room to manuever.
    He is using the vehicle as a weapon and has demonstrated means, motive and opprotunity to kill or injure you. You draw your firearm and fire hitting him in the head killing him vehicle stops threat gone. Justified use of deadly force.
    The second half same thing except he now gets close and you dive out of the way and he passes you. You now draw your weapon and fire into the back window striking him in the head killing him. You will be charged with 1st Degree
    Murder (or similar charges within your state). The difference is the threat had passed he was no longer driving toward you. You cannot use as a defense that he was going to turn around and head back or put the car in reverse. Again as far as anyone is concerned he would stop, get out fall to his knees and beg forgiveness.

    In this situation if the victim has now armed herself simply say "Hey want some more of this" and as he turns around shoot the SOB in the chest. No witness, no tampering with evidence, "He was coming toward me and said I will choke you to death so I shot him".

    Dont misunderstand my comments, could she get away with shooting him in the back, maybe depends on a lot of stuff. She could survive being charged or a trial but the ensuing civil action would/could be devastating.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #54
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    Zombieshoot good post just want to point out something,

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

    Just pointing out that the felony(s) had already occured not saying you are wrong but could be interpreted as crime has already been committed so no further threat.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #55
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Zombieshoot good post just want to point out something,

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

    Just pointing out that the felony(s) had already occured not saying you are wrong but could be interpreted as crime has already been committed so no further threat.
    You're in the wrong.

    Why?

    Because he's still in the house. Under the law (in Florida at least) he's still a threat.

    He's a threat until he leaves the house.

    You skipped the first quote:

    776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

    (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

    (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
    As long as the guy is still in the house he's still a threat. And according to the OP's scenario he's still in the same room with the victim when he gets shot.

    Clearly a legal and justified shoot.

  12. #56
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirage2521 View Post
    WHo said she was in a house? You are adding to the question information that was not provided.

    I re-read the OP and I guess she did say "take the gun out of dresser" so we can assume she was in her house. I was not arguing whether or not she could shoot, simply stating that "castle doctorine" does not apply if you are not in your house or car.
    I'm not adding information. It's reasonable to assume that the victim is in a house based on the fact she pulled the weapon from a dresser.

    Unless where you live dressers are kept out in the middle of the street the rest of us have them in our bedrooms.

    So yes in Florida castle doctrine applies in this situation.

    And I would argue even if the rape took place in the street and she pulled her gun out of her purse and shot the guy in the back as he was pulling up his pants she still wouldn't be charged since it would be successfully argued by an competent attorney that after being raped she was still in fear of losing her life and shot to defend herself.

    In this case "Stand your Ground" would come into play.

    And any DA that prosecuted such a woman would be run out of office. They aren't going to touch that case with a ten foot pole.

    However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    Defense attorney: "The defendant was just raped and the rapist was talking about killing the defendant who is the victim here!"

    Jury after 30 seconds of deliberation: 'We find the defendant not guilty. We also find the DA, arresting officers, the grand jury and idiot judge who let this case go forward guilty and sentence them to 30 years."

  13. #57
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    Wow I stand corrected she would even be immune from criminal and civil prosecution in Florida. Learn something new everyday. Wish all states were like that.

    776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--

    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #58
    Member Array mamakennedy's Avatar
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    Personally, if I were in a situation like that as long as I the BG was within 20-30 feet, in my home/ car/ campsite/ area, in control of my surroundings, or within sight he is a threat and should be dealt with accordingly.
    If I were home he could easily walk from my bedroom the the kitchen and be out of side, yet be arming his self. If I were out in the woods, how do I know he is not stepping away to get a shovel or something...maybe he has to pee before it starts again.
    By perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate a rape, he has made his intent clear to cause great bodily harm OR death
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws... serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man - Cesare Beccaria

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieShoot View Post
    Some of you are wrong...
    Your missing the point there are many factors in every SD shooting, and the obvious issue is she would have to prove it was a rape, and depending on the jurisdiction, that in and of its self does not justify a SD shooting.

    I'm not taking the rapist's side, I did not state it is not a justified SD shooting, I'm not suggesting anything other then, there are always potential complications.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieShoot View Post
    ...Because he's still in the house. Under the law (in Florida at least) he's still a threat...
    Just because someone is in your house does not = you can shoot them any time you want.

    "Most rape victims know their attacker at least casually. In many cases, offenders were
    well known to the victim and were in relationships that one would normally trust, i.e.
    boyfriend, family friend, close neighbor or relative."

    http://www.ccasa.org/documents/Rape_Myths_&_Facts.pdf

    That is just assuming there are some complicating factors as to who the rapist is. What if the "victim" had been drinking, etc. Castle doctrine, if law in the hypothetical jurisdiction is not prefection, it is good to have, but nothing is flawless.
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  16. #60
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    I would hope the victim didn't face prosecution but I wouldn't bet my life on what a jury would do. Many juries and prosecutors like to go with a lesser charge when there is doubt.

    It may be viewed as a revenge killing.

    Circumstances will define whether a crime has been committed. The victim's statements will weigh heavily on whether or not charges are filed. Saying that some LEO told her to shoot would not be a wise choice.

    Odds are the victim will be in the clear but it's a situation I would not like to be in.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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