Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry - Page 2

Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry

This is a discussion on Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Also if you are confident with your balance, when performing the J hook and grabbing their upper limbs, once you rotate continue pulling his limbs ...

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Thread: Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Also if you are confident with your balance, when performing the J hook and grabbing their upper limbs, once you rotate continue pulling his limbs in the direction of the travel while simultaneously putting out your leg firmly to his lower legs to prevent him from gaining his balance and further causing him to be thrown over


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    if you are not too small, we've also employed close line type techniques (sometimes with the elbow) that can be combined with the J-hook, not only do you step aside but at the same time extend your elbow or hook your arm.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Another drill we often do is what civilians like to liken to James bond, if an opponent charges you, bran his upper limbs or body while yielding to his forward momentum.

    Put one leg against his upper thigh or hip bone while sitting straight down, body mechanics will cause him to be thrown over you while you gently rock back,. if you manage to hold onto him this whole time, you can use that same momentum to roll and sit on top of him.

    That requires a lot of practice but is extremely effective, it is from a set of techniques known as sacrifice techniques. You end up on the ground, but so does he/she....but in a worse way

  4. #19
    Member Array fox2102's Avatar
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    It's always good to train in hand to hand. The only problem I have with most martial arts is they have rules. I trained under bujinkan taijutsu. We focused a lot on how to deal with an attacker armed with a knife or stick or gun. In most situations we were taught to bring the attacker as close as possible and ground the weapon and then worry about the BG. That and to accept your going to get cut, shot, hit, or maybe killed. Taijutsu teaches on principles rather than techniques. I've taken other martial arts that focus on memorizing techniques and forms that were pretty useless in real life. There are techniques in taijutsu but the idea is to learn the principle behind them. Like of someone's spine is off line you can throw them or certain stances will make them more likely to attack different parts of your body and what not. It allows you to use these principles quickly in combat rather than trying to go through a 1-2-3 motion of a technique because there is no way to know that the BG will go along with the technique. When running on principle if something changes during a technique you can quickly adjust

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    The system of Jujutsu I train is has no rules. We don't do sport, and we don't do tournament. We train to defend ourselves and others. We are also taught what is and is not an appropriate amount of force.

    When we spar we make body contact with strikes (except for in the case of the face and groin, we mimic the strike), we strangle, we lock, we pull noses.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    What you practice in taijutsu sounds similar to some of the things we do as well. We also talked about fighting a trained knife fighter and how to use the hard part of your forearm as a shield from slashing attacks in order to get closer to the aggressor to disarm him/gain wrist control.

  7. #22
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    That is what I am talking about. These things create time, not really distance. Please keep going.

    Fox give us an example we could all do here.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    give me a Scenario as well Tacman and i'd tell you how my training/principles would dictate my reaction, since its a matter of reaction, I will tell you first thought that pops into my head as I read it.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Can't say I have much training outside of what I have mentioned. But trying to come up with some simple things. A few more ground techniques. My personal feeling is that if I get on the ground I intend to stay there if I can get on top and get control. For one, you limit the amount of damage a BG can do with their fists, and you contain the fight and can hopefully get some help there.

    1. If you find yourself on the ground and on top the most likely thing for the bottom guy to do is push up to get on their hands and knees. Take one or both arms and forcefully cut down their arms. Strike them at the elbows and force them to bend. Simultaneously, knee them as hard as you can in the rear, or better, in the groin. This does 2 things, it breaks their upper body down and drives them forward, further breaking them down. If done right you can end up with their arms under complete control. Though it means your hands and knuckles are between the BG and the ground to control them. If you don't want to fight you can lock someone up like this. And remember to get on your toes to put your weight on them!

    2. If you are on bottom trying to get out, lead with your head. Throw your head up and back as hard as possible while trying to stand up. Best case scenario you land a head butt right on their nose. Most folks will have their head/face in a vulnerable position right over yours unless you train to keep it out of the way.

    3. If you can manage to get control of one arm with the BG on the bottom try to pull it so that the elbow, upper arm gets under the chin. Pull the arm back and apply pressure to the back of their head with yours. If done right you can choke someone out pretty quick. Plus you have control of one arm and they only have 3 points to fight with!

    4. If you get on top and intend to stay there, mind your head. See #2. Keep your head to the side on their shoulder or over their back. If needed take your chin and GRIND it into their back as hard as possible. It hurts more than you think and tends to make you do funny things with your back as well as distracting them.

    5. And yelling in someones face is surprisingly effect if you want to startle or freeze them for a second. This is taught in some martial arts, and was mentioned to me by a former Navy SEAL.

    And again, fight dirty, fight hard, and fight to win! When I was working with the at risk teens, I told my boss that under no uncertain terms I was going home at the end of my shift. Where the kids went was entirely based on their behavior.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I don't want to fight the BG any longer than I have to. Control the attack arm weaken him with a few blows and push him off. This will gain you space and time to draw and shoot if needed. Make this as quick as you can so you can look for BG #2 and 3. If you stay on #1 to long the others will make it hurt with hits or kicks ect. If there is one to deal with most likely there will be more in the back ground.

  11. #26
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    +1 Bill MO

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I don't want to fight the BG any longer than I have to. Control the attack arm weaken him with a few blows and push him off. .
    The objective for folks like us is to break free from the BG and create enough space and time to preferably get away, deploy gun if appropriate. Hopefully just by resisting your BG will decide to go look elsewhere.

    Who wants to be in a long fight with a BG? It won't end well.

    There have been a few comments here and in other threads about
    volitionally going to ground such as the maneuver described earlier in this thread, and also in another thread elsewhere on this forum.

    To my mind that is a last resort. It limits your ability to break away, almost assures a long wrestling or fist fight on the ground, and doesn't really get you a strategic advantage. Even if you land on top, a natural fighter would buck you off and pin you. A vicious fighter would kick or punch your head in.

    You want an advantage, do something to put the other fellow on the ground while you remain on your feet.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I don't want to fight the BG any longer than I have to. Control the attack arm weaken him with a few blows and push him off. This will gain you space and time to draw and shoot if needed. Make this as quick as you can so you can look for BG #2 and 3. If you stay on #1 to long the others will make it hurt with hits or kicks ect. If there is one to deal with most likely there will be more in the back ground.
    Very sound advice, always assume there is more than one attacker, fighting on the ground is especially dangerous because of this.

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    At the 0-6" distant going hands on first is sometimes needed to give your self time to go to gun. If you go to gun and they jam you on the draw it will be alot worst of a fight than going to hands first. Blocking and taking control of the weapon arm (knife, bottle) and then a few stikes to the face or throat and pushing them off balance will give you the space and time to draw and get the gun into play.

    My thoughts for when you are in the hole as you call it.
    this is what i was thinking.
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18CFw0lnD8

    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  14. #29
    Member Array OldLincoln's Avatar
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    I think of going up against one of the muscle guys like going up against a large brown bear. You see it coming but the bear will just swat anything you do away. If they didn't have a gun I might flop and draw giving them a smaller target for their hands and maybe confuse them for a second.

    I will say that I have thought about what to do in a real attack and I admit I would not fight fair with my initial strike going for the eyes doing my best to blind them.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post

    I will say that I have thought about what to do in a real attack and I admit I would not fight fair with my initial strike going for the eyes doing my best to blind them.
    There is no such thing as fair and unfair in a real fight, you do what you need to do to survive or control the situation.

    And with proper training many strength advantages go away. one of the other instructors in my art is a 260 lb 3rd Degree black belt. I am 162 lbs and much shorter and I am able to throw him during sparring (although very rarely, he is very good and outranks me, i'm a 1st degree).

    Against lower ranking larger opponents (white belt to green belt) I have yet to lose a sparring match.

    If you are very concerned about fighting in close contact with large opponents I would consider taking up a martial art like Judo or a Combative form of Jujutsu.

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