Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry

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Thread: Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry

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    Fighting inside the hole. Kinda long sorry

    I am not endorsing any technique, school, firearm, ammo, training or method. I am not claiming to have developed or discovered anything mentioned in this post. I have trained in the techniques listed with both simunitions and live fire drills and still have all my fingers and toes so take it for what it is worth.

    No this is not a topic about fighting in a crater or cave. In law enforcement and training circles "The Hole" is the contact distance of zero to six feet. It is someplace you do not want to be if confronted with a lethal force situation.
    A person armed with a bat, broken bottle, knife, corkscrew or simply his hands does not have to be a master of ninja skills to cause you great bodily harm at this distance.
    Before you shout "I would never let him get that close to me"!!! Most if not all of us do it everyday and never think about it. Public restrooms, hallways, standing in line at McDonalds, waiting rooms at the doctors office, sitting in the lounge at the wal mart auto department waiting on the oil to get changed.
    Unless you prepare for fighting at this distance you will not survive the encounter, there simply is not enough time.

    For years it was taught simply get out of the hole, create distance which is great and is still a viable option but only works if the bad guy stood still and let you create that distance but the problem was they often pursued so no greater increase in distance was created. Now you were attempting to back peddle and attempt to draw your gun at the same time or had turned with your back to the bad guy with no way to fend off his attack.

    But what if you looked at it this way. What if instead of creating distance you learned how to fight in the hole. Instead of backing off you created not space but time to draw your weapon.

    If you are not familiar with the "Tueller Drill" you should be. It was the determination of a cop and his teaching and preaching the "21 Foot Rule" that is in use today. The bad guy can close from a distance of 21 feet and cause you harm before you can draw your gun and engage the threat.
    Dont believe it try it sometime with a redgun or simunitions or toy. Have someone stand 21 feet from you and when they are ready charge. Can you get to your firearm and engage the threat? Remember reaction is slower than action.

    Now imagine the same thing from six feet. What would you do? How would you react? Some techniques that are used for the Tueller drill can be adapted and used here with good results.
    Lateral movement, quickly sidestepping the direct attack while reaching for and drawing your weapon.
    The J hook, moving to the side and in the same direction your attacker just came from. This forces him to have to stop forward momentum and redirect in the opposite direction.
    Supine, what the heck is that? Supine is just the opposite of prone. You are on your back whether by choice or the force of initial contact has put you there. You can draw, fire and accurately engage a threat from this position.

    The one drawback to all this? You have to practice the techniques to see what works for you and what doesn't. I dont know about you but I am 48 years old and my body does not react the way it used to.
    You must be at a higher level of profciency with your firearm for these techniques to work. You must be able to hit a moving target at close range with most shooting done with the elbow locked in and without the use of the sights, at this distance you will not get a second chance.
    You must get instruction or teach yourself to fire as soon as the weapon clears the holster and your body. You will not wait for center mass shots.
    You will begin shooting as soon as the weapon clears you and is on him. It will not matter if the first shot strikes him in the thigh, then groin, then abdomen, then chest as you bring the weapon up they are all hits that cause pain and trauma that will hopefully either cause him to lose interest in you for the time being or mechanically break him so he goes down and stops the pursuit or the attack. Only after engaging and creating distance would the arms be fully extended and have any portion of a sight picture.

    Well hopefully I have given you something to think about and post on. Please give opinions, options ask questions. I am not claiming to be the tell all expert if I dont know it I am sure someone on here will chime in.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    I'm afraid if you are attacked from within 6 feet, you are in for an interesting few seconds.

    I'm no expert and way to old to play for real, so take my remarks with how ever many grains of salt as you deem necessary.

    At that close distance the J hook will not only get you to the dead side and get you an opportunity to kick the BG's knee inward laterally, it will buy you a split second to draw-- or preferably run. It might also position you for throwing him.

    We often practice a scenario where a guy gets close and attempts to throw a sucker punch with the right. If you can duck under (U shaped move) and do the J Hook, you get some options. If you can block the strike with both arms, you can get a right elbow into the chin, maybe a knife hand to the neck, and maybe an opportunity for anything from an inside arm bar to a choke or mobility throw--- if you don't get stabbed by the guy's left hand. That's why the J hook is a great little maneuver. It gets you away from that left hand, and even if there is a knife or gun in the right hand, it puts you in a position from which you can execute several different moves and possibly a disarm.

    J hook makes great sense if you are quick enough to pull it off. If you are agile enough to drop, (not sure I like the idea of going supine), you might be able to shoot upward or somehow take the BG off his feet. Most opponents don't expect people to drop and then come up forcefully or attack the legs. In modern Arnis the move is sometimes called "planting rice" and can be done without the rattan stick.

    In the news today we had a city officer attacked and body slammed against a car. From the way the story goes, I doubt he had any inkling the fellow he had approached was going to try to take him out. A trainee along as an observer saved the day by jumping in and creating enough space and time for the real officer to get a Taser deployed.

    I practice getting to stuff from various holds, not just breaking the hold.

    Oh, and from where I am, 48 is still pretty young.

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    LOL Hopyard and thanks for the reply. The main thing is you are thinking, you are training not just one thing but a couple in case one doesnt work that is what matters. You are in the perfect location with the J hook to strike the knee it hard enough may cause enough pain or injury that he will lose interest quick.
    Dropping supine takes training. Most times our minds do not like the fact of falling backwards without looking. The easiest way I found is to squat first then roll back which I think is what you are talking about.
    Of course it would be embarrassing as hell when it was all over with for me to have to have a hand getting up. I am so glad the episode with the officer worked out, you are absolutely right at this distance it would be the most interesting few seconds of your life.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    At the 0-6" distant going hands on first is sometimes needed to give your self time to go to gun. If you go to gun and they jam you on the draw it will be alot worst of a fight than going to hands first. Blocking and taking control of the weapon arm (knife, bottle) and then a few stikes to the face or throat and pushing them off balance will give you the space and time to draw and get the gun into play.

    My thoughts for when you are in the hole as you call it.

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    re: Tacman

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    LOL Hopyard and thanks for the reply. The main thing is you are thinking, you are training not just one thing but a couple in case one doesnt work that is what matters. You are in the perfect location with the J hook to strike the knee it hard enough may cause enough pain or injury that he will lose interest quick.
    Dropping supine takes training. Most times our minds do not like the fact of falling backwards without looking. The easiest way I found is to squat first then roll back which I think is what you are talking about.
    Of course it would be embarrassing as hell when it was all over with for me to have to have a hand getting up. I am so glad the episode with the officer worked out, you are absolutely right at this distance it would be the most interesting few seconds of your life.
    Actually, your post today motivated me to practice a bunch of right and left j hooks at the gym, with the goal of also reaching back and retrieving my flashlight from a rear pocket, to simulate either going for a flashlight (a good tool), a knife (I don't carry one), or a gun--- though I don't use the back pocket. SO, in a way it wasn't really practical for me as an exercise, but still worthwhile.

    I also practiced several approaches to retrieve that flashlight from a bear hug.

    Again, I'm way to old probably for any of this to ever actually do me any good with a real BG--- but it keeps my aging body moving, gets me out of the house, and G-d forbid, maybe it will be helpful.

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    I had the assignment to service some computers at a Max Security prison. As I was escorted through the yard, my knees actually became shaky. I have never seen men that muscular and threatening. You've heard the saying "if looks could kill", I was thoroughly intimated. If one of those guys got within 6' with bad intentions I think my goose would be well done.

    It's one situation where the old "forearm gun" seen in old movies would be useful.

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    re: Old Lincoln

    Quote Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post
    I had the assignment to service some computers at a Max Security prison. As I was escorted through the yard, my knees actually became shaky. I have never seen men that muscular and threatening. You've heard the saying "if looks could kill", I was thoroughly intimated. If one of those guys got within 6' with bad intentions I think my goose would be well done.

    It's one situation where the old "forearm gun" seen in old movies would be useful.
    Yes, I worked for three hours in one of these prisons. Except for the guys who looked like they were there gay pedophiles, the rest were bulked up hulks. Most didn't so much as show any emotion whatsoever-- no smile, no frown, no giveaway of what they were thinking; just poker face. Some "trustees" were working with knives and scissors, and the realization that they could slit my throat at any moment and there was nothing the guards could do to stop it was quite an eye opener.

    Meet some of these characters on the street and nothing less than a .45 deftly used COM or a shotty will really do. (I do understand where Hot Guns is coming from on the caliber issue. )

    I'm talking about 6 foot + bulked up dudes weighing in at 225 and up, who look just like the folks on MSNBCs Lock up series.

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    Nobody likes the idea of pumped up inmates but it beats them pumping up on the corrections officers.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    That is why you had better have a plan when engaged at this distance.
    Like BillMo said you may be able to strike or block an attack just long enough to gain space and time.
    Consider carrying a small fixed blade knife in a good location so if charged you simply draw and punch out or slash. You would be amazed at the damage you can do with a small sharp knife.
    Some companies make pens that have sharpened tips that would do the same thing and require little or no training technique.
    The two things convicts find when they go to prison is God and the weight room. Some states have done away with them entirely but the inmate having a lot of time on his hands simply replaced the weights with objects in his cell. I worked for two years at a Maximum Security Prison before going into law enforcement full time. It was not uncommon for prisoners on ad seg or lockdown to pass the time by doing 1000 pushups or situps in their cell in a 24 period. The other prisoners were ussually to tired to work out, in our state convicts work in the fields on hoe squads 12 hours a day, tends to keep them out of trouble.
    Keep the posts coming you have some great ideas and suggestions.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    A couple things I picked up in high school wrestling. And I'm usually less worried about going to the ground since I have done the wrestling and therapeutic restraint training (wrestling where you can't hurt the kid basically).

    1. If someone gets a hold of you there is a very simple way to get out most times. It takes some guts and will likely hurt. Pick your feet up, knees to chest. Most folks cannot hold another human if they are not expecting it. You can slip out of a bear hug like that. As soon as you hit, turn, grab the calves, shoulder to the knee and drive with your legs. YOu lock out the knees and noone can stand long when they are being pushed and cannot step back.

    2. If you are grabbed from behind, you can do a move we called the Kiwi Roll. Grab the attackers hands. Start to run forward. Since you are holding them now, they will likely follow you. When they are running too do a front roll. Tuck your head, curl up, and roll. The BG will slap their forehead right on the ground since they are not expecting it. Leaves a really nice red mark on the forehead! Roll away and run.

    3. Your weight is your friend. If you manage to get an upper hand and get on top of someone while on the ground keep up on your toes. Most folks want to get on their knees. This takes pressure off of the BG. Get up on your toes and you put much more pressure on the BG. The added pressure will wear them out quicker.

    4. If someone is biting you, grab their nose. They will have to come up for air.

    5. If you are trying to get control of an arm, grab at the shoulder and slide down to the wrist. The closer to the joint the less movement and the easier it is to grab.

    Doing any of this in a real life situation is tougher. But I can tell you some of the kids I restrained were good size and would have gladly tried to knock me out if they could have gotten an advantage. A few tried, and one tried to break my collar bone. So it can work. Most street thugs are not going to be 225lbs and 6'2". I'm thinking crackhead here. And probably the most important part, be prepared to win as violently and quickly as possible! Anything goes.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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    Except for the front roll these I can do. The old saying if you control the joint you control the man hold true with this. Causing damage to knees, elbows, fingers can cause great deal of pain quickly.
    As chiefjason said "Anything goes" Do something they dont expect that may give you the time you need.
    If you have anymore techniques please post them and if possible ways to adapt them for everyone to use.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    good stuff chief jason

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Except for the front roll these I can do. The old saying if you control the joint you control the man hold true with this. Causing damage to knees, elbows, fingers can cause great deal of pain quickly.
    As chiefjason said "Anything goes" Do something they dont expect that may give you the time you need.
    If you have anymore techniques please post them and if possible ways to adapt them for everyone to use.
    Me too, except for the front roll I liked what chiefjason wrote. The front roll takes more athleticism than most of us have and risks a broken neck.

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    I train at least 7 hours a week in holistic combative Jujutsu not just because its a good work out and instills mental strength, but for this reason as well, we spar at a distance, close, and on the ground.

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    ctsketch what if any techniques can you describe that might be useful? Something we could all use.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    From my training is someone charged me at a close distance I would not only try something similar to the J hook but I would wait until the moment he thought he was touching me, crap one or two of his limbs, step to the side and towards him while rotating my body and his limbs. Worst case is he will be extremely off balanced, best case is his arm will break, or he will fast plant or be thrown over. If you area really good do a 180 and get your hip in it, then he will be thrown over.

    We do drills like this in class many times, at least 20 times left and 20 times right.

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