I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN" - Page 2

I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN"

This is a discussion on I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Being devil's advocate for a second; 1) if you don't have time to draw, you didnt' stay aware and waited too long due to not ...

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Thread: I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN"

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Being devil's advocate for a second;

    1) if you don't have time to draw, you didnt' stay aware and waited too long due to not assessing the situation well enough beforehand, let alone they got that close to begin with. Your training did not help you much.

    2) martial arts, are not a cure all. I was in them for years, and did cross training in other disciplines, as well as with weapons. . Learning martial arts is not "how to fight" , it is how to keep out of a fight and what to do only if there is no other choice. It's not for people to get macho and believe they can whip everyone else or fight their way out of every situation. Just because you know them, doesn't mean the person doing the attacking isn't trained and may know more than you do . .... bad assumption.

    3) martial arts are not a defense against a gun, a bullet travels much faster.

    4) I'm totally and absolutely against off the body carry.

    5) As people get older, their ability to "fight" their way out is lessened to some degree, so martial arts are not a great help in most cases, but they can still defend themselves often quite well.

    IMHO .... I think to "challenge" the woman on her intelligence or choice was the wrong approach for any 'instructor'. I think approaching her to "add " to her skills and arsenal would have been a better approach. One can never have too many tools to use for self-defense .... just in case they are needed or prove useful.
    Last edited by Eagleks; May 15th, 2010 at 08:01 PM.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    1) if you don't time to draw, you didnt' stay aware and waited too long due to not assessing the situation well enough beforehand, let alone they got that close to begin with. Your training did not help you much.
    We can't be on condition one ALL the time, whats stopping a guy from a line at a grocery store or bank from grabbing you quickly or something?

    martial arts, are not a cure all.
    No one claimed they were AFAIK, but some fight training and knowledge of when to use it helps.

    3) martial arts are not a defense against a gun, a bullet travels much faster.
    Martial arts gun disarmament does not seek to be faster than a bullet, just faster than the hand guiding the trigger of a mugger/hostage taker.

    5) As people get older, their ability to "fight" their way out is lessened to some degree, so martial arts are not a great help in most cases, but they can still defend themselves often quite well.
    my 80 year old sensei can still kick my ass time to time
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I'm disabled by a spinal cord injury,and can't go H2H with a 3rd grader without getting whooped,I'm a pretty good target for BG's so I try to stay in condition orange when I'm out,
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I make a note to observe my surroundings and those around me but that's as much as I can do, if I am alone walking around, I avoid suspicious people
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  5. #20
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    I have been fortunate enough to be able to take advantage of a Krav Maga class offered by the Air Force over the past few years. It's a great tool and (heaven forbid) I may be grateful someday that I've taken the time to study it.

    Given the option though, I'd rather use my gun.
    Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
    And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

  6. #21
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I'm disabled by a spinal cord injury, and can't go H2H with a 3rd grader without getting whooped, I'm a pretty good target for BG's so I try to stay in condition orange when I'm out,
    Sir, first off, I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

    Young, healthy people have hard time observing the real world where some of us really need to carry a firearm as the only viable and effective option.

    My brain is not affected at all, and my SA works just fine with my brown Beltman belt that carries my G26.

    Stay safe.

  7. #22
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    I am teaching a women's self defense class at my martial arts school. Last night was class number 2. This may be a long post so bare with me.

    The first night of class we covered basic techniques of breaking wrist grabs and frontal chokes. This is not the issue of thread.

    There was a participant who excused herself because she was overcome by the agression of the class. ( we teach as realisticly as possible) She said she had a panic attack. I approached and explained that in order to preform under real pressure you need to be able to train under pressure. ( She was doing very well while in class) She did not rejoin that night. Last night she cam back but was late. We were covering a collar grab or shoulder grab defense. I was making my way thru the class and noticed that she was not doing the technique.

    I questioned her and her response was (paraphrased)
    "We don't want to fall down and go thru all this" (they were not required to fall down)

    I asked her what she would do in a real life situation. And here it comes....

    "I don't need this, I have a gun"

    The fuse was lit. I asked her if she could put her gun in someones face and pull the trigger, she said "no i'll put it in their stomach"

    Me: "Could you pull the trigger"
    Her: " Yes"
    Me: "multiple times?" (she carries a ruger lcr...which she just bought)
    Her: "If i had to"

    Now mind you I am a very involved instructor, I want everyone to do their very best. At this point she is not doing anything close to her best. To save the length, I will not narrate.

    She said she carried in her purse, and also that when she walked she kept her hand on the gun(cross body) she then stated that to get to her keys she needed to reach in her pocket. (which takes her hand off of her gun) She said that if someone snatched her purse that would assist her in her draw. I demonstrated that she was totally wrong and not to mention not justified in using her firearm in my opinion.

    From there I showed some other scenarios about purse snatching, and spoke about the fact that buying a gun and shooting well at a target is not the only thing involved in carrying safely.

    My point is not to bash women, but to say that anyone who feels that merely buying and carrying a firearm does NOT mean that you are prepared to defend yourself. If you buy a gun and carry it you need to focus on malfunction clearing, reloading, weapon retention, weapon disarm, and supplemtary weapons(knife, oc, kubaton, etc) If you are carrying a firearm you need to be able to defend yourself with and without that weapon. Hand to hand is more than likely what you need to rely on to save you.

    I thought maybe some people would enjoy this story and maybe relate to it and give their opinion. Hopefully some people man or woman will get their eyes opened to this and seek more training.
    Thanks.
    ***************NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE *****************

    Jason
    I didn't take offense, but I get the impression by this post that you aren't very good at teaching women, or resistant students. As a professional training developer and instructor, I see it as a challenge when I meet a resistant student, and am motivated to find ways to overcome resistance to the subject involved. Men teaching women has unique challenges as well.

    One of the cardinal rules of teaching a resistant or difficult student is to NOT show them how they're wrong and you're right. It takes real skill to gently move them from the position they occupy, to a better position. Many people make leaps of progress, and remain dug-in in their prior position until they are ready to move to the next one. Appearing to attack them just makes them dig in deeper and longer.

    Teaching someone who is prone to panic attacks, or is resistant to physicality how to defend themselves is tough. Have you looked into instruction for yourself on how to learn how to reach folks like that?

  8. #23
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Teaching someone who is prone to panic attacks, or is resistant to physicality how to defend themselves is tough.
    Excellent observation.

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    I know and understand what you are going through. I've been involved and instructed the MAs/SD classes for over 20 years both in and out of the military and have done both military and civilian. I've run across plenty of folks as you described and have a dickens of a time explaining that the gun is a tool and that tool is only as good as the one who wields it and as with any tool, it's not the ultimate defense tool, have other tools in your arsenal to compliment it or to at least give you the chance to deploy it if someone gets to close to you.

    I had a few folks, men and women like you talk about, some I've convinced, some I wasn't able to, at least I tried with all my heart.

    I've pretty much since retirement given it up except for the here and there associate and their kids who want some instructions.

    Keep plugging away my friend.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Sounds like my in laws! Except, they would have never gone to the class in the first place!
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

  11. #26
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    I'll try to address all the questions directed at me.

    MN2GO- If I told you that was for nothing I would be an idiot. I feel wholeheartedly that having a firearm and knowing how to use it, but I also believe that people need other options. SA and avoidance are good ideas but sometimes we are put in situations where even though we are observant or aware of our surroundings, we can be targets. As mentioned, a bank or checkout line, or how about walking out of the store and on the phone. There are plenty of opportunities. I'm glad she has devoted the time to not being a victim, way to go.

    People mention SA, how about someone coming up behind you or a suprise attack, it takes much longer to draw and shoot when startled than it does to engage your attacker long enough to create distance and survival gap. SD is a tool in the box.

    The walking stick and cane are ideal. So many options.

    I have not sought out courses to help me with my instruction, thus far I have a pretty good track record with teaching people. Not saying I wouldn't be interested, please PM me with links to where I can find it.

    DUKALMIGHTY-Sorry to hear about your injury, however if you were to be overcome and have a chance to grab onto your attacker, there are many many options, pressure points, eye gouges, etc. It does not take any more pressure to effect a pressure point than it does to fire a gun.

    Someone mentioned that there is no simplistic SD, I disagree 100%. If you train your reaction to be that of gross motorskills you can defend yourself w/o holding any rank or certification.


    I think I have addressed all the questions. If not please let me know.

    Jason
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    We can't be on condition one ALL the time, whats stopping a guy from a line at a grocery store or bank from grabbing you quickly or something?
    I was taught to use all my senses, even where everyone is around me at all times... no exceptions. It's awareness, not "condition one". LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    No one claimed they were AFAIK, but some fight training and knowledge of when to use it helps.
    Why are you telling me this ?? Didn't I say, I had been in martial arts for YEARS and different disciplines ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Martial arts gun disarmament does not seek to be faster than a bullet, just faster than the hand guiding the trigger of a mugger/hostage taker.
    You'ld never get that close to me. Besides, you miss one point..... the attacker may know martial arts too.... never assume your foe is ignorant or untrained. You seem to not have learned that lesson yet.

    We had a local guy who taught and owned some of the schools...... who liked to show how macho he was and tended to try to impress people that he had his 2nd degree black belt... and to get in bar fights.

    One night, a guy who was drunk bumped into him.... and he apologized. However, Mr Macho jumped up and advised him that he was a 2nd degree black belt and could whooop him easily..... the guy introduced him to his .38 cal revolver and shot him. He was NOT charged, as it was considered self-defense ...... he had been threatened by someone in martial arts and was in fear of great bodily harm.

    Your brain, is your most powerful weapon.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I was taught to use all my senses, even where everyone is around me at all times... no exceptions. It's awareness, not "condition one". LOL.
    There are always different levels of awareness.


    You'ld never get that close to me.
    So you've never waited in a line at a store?

    Besides, you miss one point..... the attacker may know martial arts too.... never assume your foe is ignorant or untrained. You seem to not have learned that lesson yet.
    On the contrary, I wouldn't assume this, we do live sparring for this reason we must know how to fight and defend against others.....who know how to fight. I have learned more lessons than you think.

    I had been in martial arts for YEARS and different disciplines ?
    How many arts and how many years? dabbling here and there in different martial arts and never spending years mastering the principles of any of them does not adequately prepare one for the battle field. Better to master one than to spend only a couple years in MANY. (fortunately for me I train in one that fights in all contexts of distance, clothe quarters, ground, knives, bats, pistols, multiple attackers)
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  14. #29
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    If a martial artist was attacked by a martial artist that would be great, they would ( more often than not) put them in their "element". Its much harder to fight against someone with no technique, no "style" no pattern, no sport mentality. Its hard to fight against someone who is intent on hurting you and not how pretty their side kick is. I personally train like CTSKETCH. Modern weapons, and on both sides of it.

    BUT being a dedicated martial artist is NOT for everyone. It takes a very long time to get proficient at something. I have trained with people who have bounced from art to art and were very good and had a "style" of their own. I have trained also with people who have bounced around and only picked up what not to do.

    Chances are no one on here can fight like I do, and I can't fight like any of you. The reason, background, height,weight, ability, desire, preference.
    I am 6'2" 320, you will never catch me doing a jump spinning anything, I will kick someone in the head, I will have to sweep their feet and stomp on them first.

    Point- everyone is different, no one fights the same, no one art or system is good for everyone, but EVERYONE should have something.
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    There are people of both sexes who put way too much faith in merely possessing a gun.
    Ain't that the truth. Anything can go wrong were you can't get to your gun like you "planed" at the range.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

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