I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN"

I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN"

This is a discussion on I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am teaching a women's self defense class at my martial arts school. Last night was class number 2. This may be a long post ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    I don't need self defense...."I HAVE A GUN"

    I am teaching a women's self defense class at my martial arts school. Last night was class number 2. This may be a long post so bare with me.

    The first night of class we covered basic techniques of breaking wrist grabs and frontal chokes. This is not the issue of thread.

    There was a participant who excused herself because she was overcome by the agression of the class. ( we teach as realisticly as possible) She said she had a panic attack. I approached and explained that in order to preform under real pressure you need to be able to train under pressure. ( She was doing very well while in class) She did not rejoin that night. Last night she cam back but was late. We were covering a collar grab or shoulder grab defense. I was making my way thru the class and noticed that she was not doing the technique.

    I questioned her and her response was (paraphrased)
    "We don't want to fall down and go thru all this" (they were not required to fall down)

    I asked her what she would do in a real life situation. And here it comes....

    "I don't need this, I have a gun"

    The fuse was lit. I asked her if she could put her gun in someones face and pull the trigger, she said "no i'll put it in their stomach"

    Me: "Could you pull the trigger"
    Her: " Yes"
    Me: "multiple times?" (she carries a ruger lcr...which she just bought)
    Her: "If i had to"

    Now mind you I am a very involved instructor, I want everyone to do their very best. At this point she is not doing anything close to her best. To save the length, I will not narrate.

    She said she carried in her purse, and also that when she walked she kept her hand on the gun(cross body) she then stated that to get to her keys she needed to reach in her pocket. (which takes her hand off of her gun) She said that if someone snatched her purse that would assist her in her draw. I demonstrated that she was totally wrong and not to mention not justified in using her firearm in my opinion.

    From there I showed some other scenarios about purse snatching, and spoke about the fact that buying a gun and shooting well at a target is not the only thing involved in carrying safely.

    My point is not to bash women, but to say that anyone who feels that merely buying and carrying a firearm does NOT mean that you are prepared to defend yourself. If you buy a gun and carry it you need to focus on malfunction clearing, reloading, weapon retention, weapon disarm, and supplemtary weapons(knife, oc, kubaton, etc) If you are carrying a firearm you need to be able to defend yourself with and without that weapon. Hand to hand is more than likely what you need to rely on to save you.

    I thought maybe some people would enjoy this story and maybe relate to it and give their opinion. Hopefully some people man or woman will get their eyes opened to this and seek more training.
    Thanks.
    ***************NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE *****************

    Jason
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."


  2. #2
    Member Array dgreen's Avatar
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    i agree 100% with the op. i have some defense training (earned a couple of belts) and strongly feel that anyone serious about self defense should take some hand to hand type training. get the basics, escapes, blocking, punching and kicks and also learn how to fall. if you think a gun is all you will ever need, wrong. think about this, your at a walk up atm or putting gas in your car and bad guy comes up behind you quickly and undetected and grabs you. your arms are restricted and cant reach your gun. now your in panic mode and not thinking clearly, could you get yourself freed and gain control of the situation. i know i could, and its a great feeling. range time, self defense classes, both very important.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgreen View Post
    i agree 100% with the op.
    So do I! Dealing with aggression is tough for many people to get their minds around...at some level they think conflict is going to be some kind of "contest" with rules and so on. Unfortunately many martial arts promote this idea, unwittingly, by an over-emphasis on sport and tournaments. You learn to fight to a set of rules, and even though you know logically that the rules don't apply on the street, you're going to do what you have trained to do. This is as true for MMA folks as it is for the average Tae Kwon Do or karate practitioner.

    i have some defense training (earned a couple of belts) and strongly feel that anyone serious about self defense should take some hand to hand type training. get the basics, escapes, blocking, punching and kicks and also learn how to fall.
    I agree, but would encourage you to continue with your training. I would caution that learning a few moves and thinking you're all set for life is more dangerous to you, in a way, than not learning any moves at all. It needs to be a reflex and for that to be true, you have to practice it a lot, and keep practicing it, i.e., make it part of your life.

    if you think a gun is all you will ever need, wrong. think about this, your at a walk up atm or putting gas in your car and bad guy comes up behind you quickly and undetected and grabs you. your arms are restricted and cant reach your gun. now your in panic mode and not thinking clearly, could you get yourself freed and gain control of the situation. i know i could, and its a great feeling. range time, self defense classes, both very important.
    Again, with all due respect, don't kid yourself. Taking some training for awhile, earning a "few belts," (as in student ranks) may give you some "head knowledge" on what to do but if you don't practice the stuff a lot, as in daily or almost daily, it won't be there when you need it.

    Think about this: even a 1st degree black belt (by no means the "end all" of training, in fact, in many ways still a "beginner") will, if he ceases to train, lose his reflexive abilities within at most, 3 to 5 years if not sooner. Sure he'll still have some head knowledge, but the reflexes? They will cease to exist.

    And finding a way to mesh your H2H training with firearms and other weapons is a necessity, if you're going to carry weapons.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    If you are carrying a firearm you need to be able to defend yourself with and without that weapon. Hand to hand is more than likely what you need to rely on to save you.
    So true!! I have taught my students this for years. We practice with ancient and modern weapons, and many, perhaps most, of our senior black belts are CPL holders.

    I thought maybe some people would enjoy this story and maybe relate to it and give their opinion. Hopefully some people man or woman will get their eyes opened to this and seek more training.
    Thanks.
    ***************NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE *****************

    Jason
    And if they can't train in a particular martial art for the rest of their life...they should at least learn some basic, effective techniques, and practice them daily...for the rest of their life. Of course, if you have the discipline to do that, then why not just go whole hog and join a style and advance as far as you can?
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  5. #5
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    YES!! at least know something. Have an understanding of something simple. Here are some things we stress(we are an aikido/aikijujitsu/kyusho based system)

    Basic self defense ideas- some come from firearms terms

    put something small in something big ( knuckle in throat/ fist in face)

    put something hard in something soft ( finger in eye/ elbow in throat)

    imbalance

    redirection

    simplicity

    HSD(high speed destruction) Hit and Run, Use your whole body against one limb.(dont try to meet muscle to muscle, use your body weight against limbs and joints)

    Just my ideas, they work and can be practiced easily. I do not feel that one system is a cure all, but any training is better than none.
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    There are people of both sexes who put way too much faith in merely possessing a gun.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    put something small in something big ( knuckle in throat/ fist in face)
    I like this one. Although I tend to teach my students that it's a bad idea to use a fist to the head, especially the jaw. It's like ramming your hand into a horseshoe. Use a "soft" weapon (palm-heel, for example) to a "hard" (i.e., bony) target, and vice versa.

    put something hard in something soft ( finger in eye/ elbow in throat)
    Yeah! Kinda like that!

    imbalance
    Tough for beginners to grasp, but doing the moves correctly will usually result in your opponent being off-balance...a good thing! Control your opponent's balance and it's over.

    redirection
    This is a really good one and especially applicable to firearms.

    simplicity
    Same as above!!

    HSD(high speed destruction) Hit and Run, Use your whole body against one limb.(dont try to meet muscle to muscle, use your body weight against limbs and joints)
    I like this, I am seeing your ju-jitsu influence.

    Just my ideas, they work and can be practiced easily. I do not feel that one system is a cure all, but any training is better than none.
    No doubt! The instructor is far more important than the style! Same for daily practice!
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  8. #8
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    If you aren't going to practice what you learn why learn. I love practicing technique and more importantly PRINCIPLES.

    We teach imbalance in a passive way, example think wrist grab, if attacker grabs your wrist and you jerk away, the grip tightens like a dogs bite. If you raise your hands to "look at your nails" (thats our pnumonic device for anyone we teach it to) its passive and you move attackers hands away from their center or instead of turning to run, step to center line and bump attacker. Not always doable but very good distraction/imbalance technique.

    As far as fist to face I teach like cheek bone, ear, eye socket area. It may hurt when you do it, but rape and being stabbed hurts a lot more from what I've been told. But yeah palm heels are very "PC" and "socially acceptable" we teach that as an ok people are witnessing/testifying to the struggle and see you using open hands vs. fists etc.

    Jujitsu influence - my father is ex spec ops, he trained in japan and okinawa for some years so I guess it kinda rubbed off. lol. check us out.

    The Dojo - A Martial Arts Training Facility

    Jason
    Last edited by AllAbtSlfDef; May 14th, 2010 at 10:51 PM. Reason: typed too fast left out words and letters
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    If you aren't going to practice what you learn why learn. I love practicing technique and more importantly PRINCIPLES.
    SO true, also for firearms. Many people do no more than go to the range and slow-fire. BIG mistake.

    We teach imbalance in a passive way, example think wrist grab, if attacker grabs your wrist and you jerk away, the grip tightens like a dogs bite. If you raise your hands to "look at your nails" (thats our pnumonic device for anyone we teach it to) its passive and you move attackers hands away from their center or instead of turning to run, step to center line and bump attacker. Not always doable but very good distraction/imbalance technique.
    Yeah I like it. A key principle of our close-in strikes is to imbalance your opponent, derived from the Okinawan karate styles.

    As far as fist to face I teach like cheek bone, ear, eye socket area. It may hurt when you do it, but rape and being stabbed hurts a lot more from what I've been told.
    Not so worried about the pain but the broken bones possible in your hand. Even with a tight fist, it's quite possible to end up with shattered bones in your hand. But it sure beats getting raped, you're right about that.

    But yeah palm heels are very "PC" and "socially acceptable" we teach that as an ok people are witnessing/testifying to the struggle and see you using open hands vs. fists etc.
    Really no time to consider who's watching or what's PC or not, in a real fight. Be justified and you'll be okay. Trying to play to the witnesses is like playing the judges in a tournament...not realistic and doesn't really fool people.

    Jujitsu influence - my father is ex spec ops, he trained in japan and okinawa for some years so I guess it kinda rubbed off. lol. check us out.
    Our GM is ex-special forces too, Vietnam era. A lot of that going around! It also partly explains our firearms interests and influences. Hey the site looks good. If I ever make it to PA (not my usual stomping grounds!) I'll visit!!
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  10. #10
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Please do, we love visitors. About playing to the public, I have to say that if you teach a skill set that they use in almost every scenario, not the same technique but same set of principles, such as, parry, strike, takedown, lock(no tap, just snap) And someone is startled and that set of instincts is triggered, its sounds odd but if you walk thru a strange neighborhood or strange area your instincts are heightened, you go thru you parry strike td lock routine and its justified because you have been grabbed or what have you, it looks better if you are using palm heels and back hands as opposed to back fist and elbow smashes. I know thats a run on but do you get what I'm saying. When LEO says what happened and BG witness says he bumped him or tried to get his attention, it is better that others see it as "pushing him back" as opposed to brutally crushing the guy. To you and I a palm heel is dangerous, to Joe citizen its not viewed as such a weapon. But I do agree when SHTF game on, don't stop til the action has ceased. Thats all I got for tonight,Good night.

    Jason
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  11. #11
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    Clearly h2h is not for everyone, but you must have some SD skills (and tools) besides the gun.

    I came to martial arts entirely after first getting the CHL. I then quickly realized that the distances at which a handgun are most effective are also the distances at which some h2h would be beneficial.

    I was very lucky that a good friend holds multiple black belts in 3 arts and teaches lots of different classes; from little kids to old men.

    I have also been lucky that when I decided it wasn't such a good idea to learn from a friend, I found a "kid" who is a pretty darn good teacher and willing to give private lessons at a reasonable price.

    I have also been lucky that Mrs H is happy to have this old geezer out of the house a few hours a week, and thrilled that I am not being sedentary 100% of the time, and in front of the computer here at DC 110% of the time.

    There are no easy or simplistic answer to SD and no one knows how a situation might play out. The more tools and training the better.

    P.S. Mercop's suggestion to train with and carry a walking cane is excellent.

  12. #12
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    If you are carrying a firearm you need to be able to defend yourself with and without that weapon. Hand to hand is more than likely what you need to rely on to save you.

    Thanks.
    ***************NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE *****************

    Jason
    Thank you for sharing. I do get your point, but I'd like to address this part of your post.

    I traveled to Japan as a youngster to study the real things - Judo, Aikido, etc. I've also studied Krav Maga in Israel. I've got some idea of what it means to protect myself in hand to hand scenario.

    However, I'm old now, and I seriously think that if I let my attacker closer than, say 10 yards, without reacting, I'm done.

    More important, my wife has had no formal training in martial arts, and she had to jump into the carry world due to extreme circumstances.

    It has taken her a lot of effort (3 years) to learn and master her self-defense gun(s), tactics and means to survival within her capabilities.

    More important, she managed to execute the 180 degree change of frame of mind from 'I can't shoot another human being" to 'I refuse to be a victim." That, my friend, counts.

    At the present she relies on her intense training, SA and avoiding any confrontation.

    Are you seriously telling me that she is doing all that for nothing?

    Peace.

  13. #13
    Member Array 9mmPro's Avatar
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    i have H2H training but i rather use the gun, cuz H2H training isnt always guaranteed effective , a bullet is...i wouldnt let them get close enough to me to ensue a struggle if they did i would push them away and draw.
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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I agree, but would encourage you to continue with your training. I would caution that learning a few moves and thinking you're all set for life is more dangerous to you, in a way, than not learning any moves at all. It needs to be a reflex and for that to be true, you have to practice it a lot, and keep practicing it, i.e., make it part of your life.
    Agreed, by continuing to train you learn not only sets of moves, but sets of principles....to a point where a reaction becomes instinctive and you make your own "moves". Sometimes for kicks some of the more advanced students when passing each other on the mat go for a mimicked sucker punch, kick, choke just to see how the other reacts.

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    i have H2H training but i rather use the gun, cuz H2H training isnt always guaranteed effective , a bullet is...i wouldnt let them get close enough to me to ensue a struggle if they did i would push them away and draw.
    A bullet is not always effective, nor is it always certain you will have time to draw your gun. I can crab a mugger's strong (pistol) wrist faster than he can perceive my movement and pull a trigger (The hand IS quicker than the eye). We do this drill in class with pop cats, where if the "mugger" senses any non compliance he must immediately shoot, by time they pull the trigger they are usually already half disarmed.

    And if someone comes behind you with a knife what will you do? or lunges at you with a knife at close range, or grabs you from behind? what good is your bullet doing now? how are you going to push that away? Best to escape, gain control then pull your side arm.

    (by no means the "end all" of training, in fact, in many ways still a "beginner")
    Quite literally Shodan (1st degree black belt) means Beginner level when translated from Japanese, that is where I am at right now, I plan to continue to train as long as my body is able. my Sensei is 7th Dan USJA and USJJF and in his Eighties, I hope I can keep going that long.
    Last edited by ctsketch; May 15th, 2010 at 12:13 AM. Reason: adding

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