Self defense shooting aftermath question

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Thread: Self defense shooting aftermath question

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Self defense shooting aftermath question

    The topic asking about anyone that has used their weapon in self defense comes up once in awhile. I think that almost all of us read the real life stories with interest. I understand that most people that have been unfortunate enough to go through a shooting, really doesn’t want to talk about it.

    However, I think that we all can benefit from lessons learned, psychological, legal, social, economic impact of being involved in a shooting.

    I would like for people to recommend books that cover this topic.

    Thanks!
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob is a good one to read; Also if you get a chance, check out Mas' column in "Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement" as well as "Combat Handguns" where he goes over case histories he has been an expert witness on and discusses what can go right and terribly wrong in self-defense shootings. There is another column he writes in "American Handgunner" called the "Ayoob Files" which is another great reference.....

    That should get you started.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob is a good one to read; Also if you get a chance, check out Mas' column in "Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement" as well as "Combat Handguns" where he goes over case histories he has been an expert witness on and discusses what can go right and terribly wrong in self-defense shootings. There is another column he writes in "American Handgunner" called the "Ayoob Files" which is another great reference.....

    That should get you started.
    Thanks for plugging Mas! I'm in his column in the May, 2010 Combat Handguns issue, page 8. (Another plug, quite shameless...)

    And anyone with "9x23" in his screen name is automatically given extra deference, in my never-humble opinion!

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    Member Array Damon1976's Avatar
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    I was actually given some pointers last night, for the immediate after math, in particular instructions for those with you. Like wife or friends.

    1) have them get safely away from you and the incident ASAP
    2) have them call the police
    3) have them describe situation as a self defense retaliation to being attacked
    4) have them describe you, what you are wearing, as the good guy defending yourself
    5) say nothing else once the cops show up until you have a lawyer

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    jfl
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    My students have to read: Principles of Self Defense by Jeff Cooper.
    Talks mostly about the "mindset" which, in my opinion, is the most important thing to come out of an SD situation alive.
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

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    I noticed that two others have beat me to it, so I will just back them up with their choices. Massad Ayoob and Jeff Cooper are two I highly recommend...also. Not boring and with great information. With as many of the articles my huband tells me I MUST READ...I always look forward to reading anything by Massad Ayoob. He has given me great advice not only on self defense, but on what to do afterward in dealing the police or courts. Wish I could take one of his classes (or several).
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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    MJK
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    Another recommendation...

    In addition to Mas and Cooper, try this in your spare time:

    "On Killing" By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman - Back Bay Books (2009) - Paperback - 377 pages - ISBN 0316040932
    The good news is that most soldiers are loath to kill. But armies have developed sophisticated ways of overcoming this instinctive aversion. And contemporary civilian society, particularly the media, replicates the army's conditioning techniques, and, according to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's thesis, is responsible for our rising rate of murder among the young.Upon its initial publication, ON KILLING was hailed as a landmark study of the techniques the military uses to overcome the powerful reluctance to kill, of how killing affects soldiers, and of the societal implications of escalating violence. Now, Grossman has updated this classic work to include information on 21st-century military conflicts, recent trends in crime, suicide bombings, school shootings, and more. The result is a work certain to be relevant and important for decades to come.

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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    I'm not talking, and I don't want family and friends talking either - eyewitness testimony is unreliable and that's just that many more stories about what happened. They may mean well, but still get you in trouble by running their mouths. People tend to interject their assumptions as facts into stories.

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    Read, "on Killing", by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman...it's a must read!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJK View Post
    In addition to Mas and Cooper, try this in your spare time:

    "On Killing" By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman - Back Bay Books (2009) - Paperback - 377 pages - ISBN 0316040932
    The good news is that most soldiers are loath to kill. But armies have developed sophisticated ways of overcoming this instinctive aversion. And contemporary civilian society, particularly the media, replicates the army's conditioning techniques, and, according to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's thesis, is responsible for our rising rate of murder among the young.Upon its initial publication, ON KILLING was hailed as a landmark study of the techniques the military uses to overcome the powerful reluctance to kill, of how killing affects soldiers, and of the societal implications of escalating violence. Now, Grossman has updated this classic work to include information on 21st-century military conflicts, recent trends in crime, suicide bombings, school shootings, and more. The result is a work certain to be relevant and important for decades to come.
    I have a signed copy of "Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill". It was quite interesting. He goes into video games as desensitizing. And the effect of increased eye hand coordination moving over to actually using a firearm. I need to re read it since I found it in a box last weekend. He did a presentation for the PD my mom works for. OK, back on topic.

    If someone else was with me I would try to have them give the LEO's the important info. The phrase, "I'm too shaken up to speak right now" comes to mind.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    An important thing to note is that an extremely large percentage of cases involving a justified use of force, they don't go much beyond the initial investigation and determination that the person using force was justified.

    Of those that go forward, almost all are resolved without a criminal trial (either through a plea, pretrial program or due to procedural issues the case is tossed...) resulting in no cases that can be found as a result of standard research.

    Also, civil actions that go forward as a result of the incident are extremely likely to be settled by the parties before trial, or dismissed on legal or procedural grounds...leaving very little that can be researched as well.

    Those cases which are left - the ones which actually go to trial (criminal or civil) and leave a researchable, fully expounded record, are one or more of the following:

    #1 Rare.
    #2 Involve extreme circumstances.
    #3 Involve mistakes made by the defendant in the pre-fight stages, or post fight police interaction, or both - and that those mistakes were serious enough to bring the case to the full conclusion of the Criminal Justice System.

    Effectively, relying on caselaw or public records to show you what the true aftermath situation is like, is the equivalent of believing that porn and real life sex is the same thing.

    It's a skewed, unrealistic view of the worse case scenario that you should learn from - but not emulate.

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    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJK View Post
    In addition to Mas and Cooper, try this in your spare time:

    "On Killing" By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman - Back Bay Books (2009) - Paperback - 377 pages - ISBN 0316040932
    The good news is that most soldiers are loath to kill. But armies have developed sophisticated ways of overcoming this instinctive aversion. And contemporary civilian society, particularly the media, replicates the army's conditioning techniques, and, according to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's thesis, is responsible for our rising rate of murder among the young.Upon its initial publication, ON KILLING was hailed as a landmark study of the techniques the military uses to overcome the powerful reluctance to kill, of how killing affects soldiers, and of the societal implications of escalating violence. Now, Grossman has updated this classic work to include information on 21st-century military conflicts, recent trends in crime, suicide bombings, school shootings, and more. The result is a work certain to be relevant and important for decades to come.
    I disagree with Grossman in that I think the reverse is actually true. Children, to a certain degree, are natural little murderers, and the role society plays is to habituate them.

    Murder rates tend to track societal control and development. There is history to support this.

    I also disagree with Grossman for the same reasons I disagree with SLA Marshall. I think his science is cruddy. I think he takes on too much with his thesis, and supports it too little.

    And... I'm getting tired of his pseudo-Nietsche-ist, elitist roles of sheep, sheepdogs and wolves. I question his assignation of roles to people in some kind of socio-biological Taylorism.

    But read it, if you must.

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