What if you have the open shot?? - Page 5

What if you have the open shot??

This is a discussion on What if you have the open shot?? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bladenbullet that situation was over before you could have reacted to it and it probably would have resulted in your death also...it ...

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Thread: What if you have the open shot??

  1. #61
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    that situation was over before you could have reacted to it and it probably would have resulted in your death also...it was a totally unannounced and next to impossible attack to defend..they were sitting ducks and other than the one who managed to make it out to the lot it was over before it began...time doesn't stand still for you when you get involved...it moves fast...4 of them were caught off guard and you would have as well...it wouldn't have been as easy as you think it was...you don't have the advantage of watching it unfold like on tv...you need to assess and react...and that takes time when something fast and violent is happening...

    more than likely you would have been changing your seating position to get off the pile you left in your pants before you had time to draw your firearm and react to it...

    again...most gun fights are short lived unless they involve assailants with body armor...then your best defense is get the heck out of dodge...
    Yes, things will happen fast, however they do not occur in a vacuum either and bad guys seldom materialize suddenly before you. As with most attacks, the attacker will display pre-attack indicators prior to the attack. The quicker you pick up on these indicators will buy you a few seconds to implementing a plan of action which may stop it before it ever starts.

    You should create a general plan of action any time you are in a public places and it should include potential and actual threats, avenues of attack, cover, and exit routes.

    When I worked patrol in Dallas and I ate in a restaurant, I was always aware of those who were around me, particularly those that where giving me hard stares, those who nodded and those that paid me no attention as well as for those displaying any of the pre-attack indicators.

    I now work plain clothes and when I eat and there are uniformed officers at the restaurant or I'm eating with them I pay particular attention to those that are watching them and those who are watching me.

    And, if I saw what I considered to be an attack on them I would take action or in the case of the scenario I would take the shot. in taking the shot I'm fully aware of everything that could go wrong to include mistaken identity.

    However, as a permit holder you have no duty to act so for every person in this situation there is no right or wrong answer and each individual's conscious will be the determining factor if they act or not.

    Also as a FYI, I personally know Guantes and have trained with him. He is a retired LEO with a boat load of experience to include working the Watts riots. I would listen to what he has to say as you will learn a lot.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"


  2. #62
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    Also as a FYI, I personally know Guantes and have trained with him. He is a retired LEO with a boat load of experience to include working the Watts riots. I would listen to what he has to say as you will learn a lot.
    with all due respect then i would expect more than "just as quickly as i could take the shot."

    and a statement about the 4 officers gunned down...without an explanation of whats involved in an undertaking of this sort and the risks involved...

    yourself being experienced along with the experience guantes has that youre aware of makes a scenario like this more likely to work out for you....this forum is composed of a great majority of amateur gun carriers who would draw at the drop of a hat and be willing to yell good guy while they take shots at a guy who is in a heated battle with an officer without consideration for anyone else in their vicinity or what dynamic they would bring to the encounter...including taking the leo attention away from task...

    i'm all for experience playing a roll in this scenario and it working out...but it should be tempered with the possible outcomes so the weekend warriors can understand it isnt a video game...

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    'with all due respect then i would expect more than "just as quickly as i could take the shot."'

    The scenario was somewhat vague as to a number of details which made responding in detail impractical. The basic question was what would you do? I answered that question. Had more details been in the scenario it would have made giving a more detailed response in order.

    'and a statement about the 4 officers gunned down...without an explanation of whats involved in an undertaking of this sort and the risks involved...'

    The statement was, "I wonder what the four Lakewood, Wa officers would say (if they could) about ccw'r aid." This was in response to what I perceived as a feeling that officers would not be appreciative of outside aid. This was not and I see no way that it appears as a suggestion to become invovled in such a situation.

    'yourself being experienced along with the experience guantes has that youre aware of makes a scenario like this more likely to work out for you....this forum is composed of a great majority of amateur gun carriers who would draw at the drop of a hat and be willing to yell good guy while they take shots at a guy who is in a heated battle with an officer without consideration for anyone else in their vicinity or what dynamic they would bring to the encounter...including taking the leo attention away from task...'

    In scenarios I respond with what I would do. Where a situation lends itself to detailed explaination I may explain the whys and wherefors or answer a question as to why I chose a particular action. I tend to be on the concise side and avoid verbosity, perhaps, sometimes to a fault.

    'i'm all for experience playing a roll in this scenario and it working out...but it should be tempered with the possible outcomes so the weekend warriors can understand it isnt a video game...'

    I would suspect that most ccw'rs understand that real life is not a video game, based the percentage of positive vs negative actions recorded by them. Perhaps you give them too little credit.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    with all due respect then i would expect more than "just as quickly as i could take the shot."

    and a statement about the 4 officers gunned down...without an explanation of whats involved in an undertaking of this sort and the risks involved...

    yourself being experienced along with the experience guantes has that youre aware of makes a scenario like this more likely to work out for you....this forum is composed of a great majority of amateur gun carriers who would draw at the drop of a hat and be willing to yell good guy while they take shots at a guy who is in a heated battle with an officer without consideration for anyone else in their vicinity or what dynamic they would bring to the encounter...including taking the leo attention away from task...

    i'm all for experience playing a roll in this scenario and it working out...but it should be tempered with the possible outcomes so the weekend warriors can understand it isnt a video game...
    I was not disagreeing with your post but I saw that you and Guantes where getting off on the foot and the mostly likely cause was that we are communicating in the written medium which is always subject interpretation and/or misinterpretion.

    My post was to explain how we are trained and the thought process we use which can be also benifical to you. And, to eliminate any thoughts in your mind that Guantes was some weekend warrior.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  5. #65
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    I was not disagreeing with your post but I saw that you and Guantes where getting off on the foot and the mostly likely cause was that we are communicating in the written medium which is always subject interpretation and/or misinterpretion.

    My post was to explain how we are trained and the thought process we use which can be also benifical to you. And, to eliminate any thoughts in your mind that Guantes was some weekend warrior.
    i was not and would not refer to guantes as a weekend warrior and that was not the purpose of my post....my apologies to both of you for misleading you i that direction...

    you are correct that in this type of forum it is difficult to express exact concerns or impressions without being very specific and many of us tend to leave out the detail that would make the difference in most cases...

    my reference to weekend warriors is to the fact that it is not difficult to lead many in a direction they may not be experienced enough in real life decision making with quick comments regarding actions one with more experience might choose...

    i agree the scenario is vague and because of it there are many aspects to any decision that should be discussed along with or in addition to the action of choice...without looking at the possible down side of an action it just might become the first choice for someone who has no idea what they are in for when they make that particular decision...when we step into a scenario..real or not...we are not in a square box anymore...paper doesnt shoot back and it isnt as reactive as real people are...

    i get where you are coming from and understand your reaction to my posts...i hope you have a better understanding of where i come form and the reason for my posts as well now...

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I completely agree re the difficulty of clarity in a written exchange where many minute details may be involved.

  7. #67
    Member Array aric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCalvinist View Post
    OK, So I was at the local fast food joint with the family.
    As we were eating a LEO walked in and ordered some lunch. I began to wonder what if someone came into rob or shoot up the place.
    And then there proceeded to be a gun fight between the BG and the LEO where they were both behind cover and shooting it out.
    Not a BG that "shoots and runs" but, a BG that stays and fights.
    In this scenario..."what if" I had an open/clear shot when the LEO obviously didn't have such a good position.
    Should I take that shot or should I remain completely uninvolved because there is a LEO present?
    What would you do if a gunfight situation like this is happening and the LEO is having difficulty getting a good shot at the BG and there are other innocent civilians around? ...Your thoughts?
    Me and mine. If my life isn't in immediate danger everyone else gets a 911 call.

  8. #68
    Member Array fox2102's Avatar
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    If the Leo is within ear shot i would let him know i'm about to take a shot. Yeah it might put the attention on me but it's going to make the BG either change his direction of fire or move.

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I'll throw a few thoughts out for consideration and discussion.

    1. You are in a relatively small location with a gunfight going on with possible ricochets or stray shots going who knows where. The quickest way for you and anyone with you to be safe is for the gunfight to be over.

    2. If you have a clear shot at him he probably has a clear shot at you. That means that if you draw your weapon for the protection of you and yours, without firing, he might see it and start lead in your direction. Any attempt at leaving is a high risk endeavor.

    3. Any audible communication with the officer, especially about taking a shot at the perp prior to taking the shot will probably direct the attention of the perp toward you, with lead following shortly thereafter.

    4. If you take the shot(s), the officer will realize that there are shots going off and no hornets buzzing overhead of nearby. That is when I would yell something to the effect of, "I hit him, I'm an armed citizen/cop/etc. What do you want me to do now?" He may tell you to drop your weapon and stay where you. He may tell you to keep a bead on where the bad guy is and he will make an approach. Hard to say, but I would be prepared for whatever.

    The safest alternative for you and yours "may" be to take the shot, depending on the precise circumstances. For most, to make a decision on a course of action beforhand is doing so possibly without vital information that will only be available at the time.

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    'yourself being experienced along with the experience guantes has that youre aware of makes a scenario like this more likely to work out for you....this forum is composed of a great majority of amateur gun carriers who would draw at the drop of a hat and be willing to yell good guy while they take shots at a guy who is in a heated battle with an officer without consideration for anyone else in their vicinity or what dynamic they would bring to the encounter'including taking the leo attention away from task...

    In scenarios I respond with what I would do. Where a situation lends itself to detailed explaination I may explain the whys and wherefors or answer a question as to why I chose a particular action. I tend to be on the concise side and avoid verbosity, perhaps, sometimes to a fault.

    .
    Myself and others on the forum are very interested in the decision-making and judgements you are making and why. Just saying "I would call 911 and shoot" or the opposite are not much help. To me, the details are important because it brings out all the things we need to take into consideration...perhaps in an instant.

    And I agree with the bold above and am often criticized for it. However if more people articulated how and why they were taking such into consideration, it wouldnt concern me as much.

    So please do, if you have the time, elaborate on your thinking in scenarios.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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