real life scenario from this past week... - Page 2

real life scenario from this past week...

This is a discussion on real life scenario from this past week... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Lots of thing to consider here. but the men were beating on the women as well as on each other, but the women were NOT ...

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 84
  1. #16
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,253
    Lots of thing to consider here.

    but the men were beating on the women as well as on each other, but the women were NOT fighting back--
    Sounds like the women were accustomed to being punching bags. As sad as it is, they made their bed and now they have to lie in it. If you were to shoot "Baby Daddy", who provides food and shelter to the woman and her baby, do you really think you will be getting a "Thank you" from said victim?

    Commentary by Evan Marshall

    As much as we may all want to help, that help needs to be tempered with the realities of the world that we live in today. Until our legal system is changed to being more supportive of third party intervention, I will only be bringing a gun to the most profound engagements.

    Do I care if the woman lives or dies? Not really, as it has no bearing on my day to day life. Is it sad? Most definately it is. Sadly the world is not Utopia, and evil does inhabit the world. My goal is to see that myself and my loved ones make it home.

    On the surface this appears to be a shoot situation, weaker defender, aggressor armed with a deadly instrument, disparity of force. Now, when it's all said and done, do you think that if you shot "Baby Daddy" that the victim here will be thankful towards you?

    Life has taught me that you would be painted as the aggressor and that your intervention was not warranted. I can assure you that the local prosecutorial powers that be would make sure you learned that lesson. That forces one to have a hard shell and appear uncaring about those around you. At least that's the approach that I have taken, as it seems to work for me.

    Would I be justified in shooting? From what I know, and looking strictly at the elements in this thread and that all of the elements of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy are met on paper, yes. Would I want to take the risk of finding out if I didn't have to? Nope, as I've got too much to lose.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; May 24th, 2010 at 12:38 PM. Reason: more info: AOJ


  2. #17
    Member Array guardmt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    404

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Davies View Post
    I really appreciate this forum and the consistent respectful discussions that go on around self-defense issues, so here is a real life scenario to chew on and discuss:

    This did not happen to me, but this was related to me today by a nurse at the hospital where I am a Chaplain.

    The nurse and her husband came out of a building in Billings this Thursday and walked around a corner and saw a group of folks who were very drunk and they were brawling with each other. There were fist-sized rocks and boards involved. There was a group of people just standing and watching, so she called 911. Then she noticed a 2 yr old toddler standing some distance from the brawling group. She ran and picked up the little girl (she held the little girl and ended up cleaning her up some before the DFYS folks arrived to take the child into protective custody) several LEOs arrived, broke up the fight, and carted everybody off to the hospital or jail.

    Now, up to this point, as she related the story I'm thinking, "OK, she was a good wittness--[I'm also thinking that if I had been there, carrying, I would have done the same thing]. Then she added these facts: Of the six, two were women (who were also drunk) but the men were beating on the women as well as on each other, but the women were NOT fighting back--there was blood everywhere--and one of the men was repeatedly smashing one of the women in the head with a rock in his fist."

    These additional facts caused me to re-evaluate my assessment: They are all drunk, but can I live with myself while watching some woman get her skull smashed in and potentially murdered right in front of my eyes while I have the means to intervene (8 rounds of hp .45) and yet do nothing??? Yet, on the other hand, to try and wade in or to attempt to intervene, even from a safe distance, in a group like this is to invite big trouble. I might be prepared to shoot the guy with the rock bashing the woman's head, but am I willing/prepared to shoot the other 3 drunk guys when they rush me waving rocks and 2x4s??


    This seems a situation with no really good options and a lot of potential for multiple really bad outcomes. What are your thoughts!!!
    I heard about that in K-town... Knowing that what if that 2 yr old girl was that mothers daughter? I know just because people are labeled whitetrash or a no good society doesnt mean you shouldnt or should take action... If a woman was having her head beat into the ground I would take action PRONTO. Not shoot to kill but more likely pulling the guy off of her and if his buddies got involved I hope they know how to wrestle well.
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  3. #18
    Member Array fox2102's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    vestavia hills, AL
    Posts
    275
    It would be a hard call to make. If i felt that someone was going to die i might step in and try to do something but that many people against me isnt good at all. That might also attract unwanted attention to the kid as well. It would be best if stepping in wasn't necessary

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Hickory, NC
    Posts
    2,782
    The problem with that situation in NC, as I understand it, is if the woman started the violence I have no legal means to defend her. If she is not legally justified in defending herself, ie instigated it, then I cannot defend her either. Tough call. If I did not see it start and know which players are responsible then I have a tough decision based on our third party defense ideas.

    That's the type of situation I worry about the most. I would probably want to do something, but feel like the law ties your hands to a point. That can be good or bad I guess.

    For example, if she tried to stab the guy before I saw anything then he is justified in bashing her head in.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kommie-fornia-stan
    Posts
    7,078
    Drunks and a domestic dispute? No thanks.....

    Children in the way...yeah...tough call. I probably would have stayed on the line with 911....
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  6. #21
    Member Array Damon1976's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    79
    I cant say for sure what I would have done. But this scenario goes right back to my thread from last week: Opportunity, Ability and Intent. And while all of us on here know we would never like to be placed in the middle of a situation like that I much like you dont know if I would have been able to stand by and watch a woman be hit in the face with a rock like that either.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    MS
    Posts
    2,261
    Quote Originally Posted by Blownsvt View Post
    I think the biggest problem with this scenrio is the fact that we even have to ask ourselves what we would do. I think all of us knows what the "right" thing to do is based on our morals and that would be to stop a man from savagely beating a defenseless woman. It's sad that laws put us in a position where we have to fear for our freedom, financial well being etc from acting in this type of situation. Thats the only reason people are playing the be a witness card. Chances are this woman has seconds not minutes to wait for the police to arrive. If its my wife or myself who is the one getting bashed in the head with a rock I sure hope none of you decides to be a "good witness" to my death/disfigurement.
    Yep, even an off duty cop won't help??
    This thread goes to show just how on your own you really are, my fellow man...LOL
    Not my problem is much easier, and we wonder why we're in the shape were in.
    Only an authority figure can act...come on
    I guess it confirms one statistic. in a crisis situation 80% will do nothing, 10% will do the wrong thing, and 10% will do the right thing, which in this case is save the women LIFE!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,974
    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    Yep, even an off duty cop won't help??
    This thread goes to show just how on your own you really are, my fellow man...LOL
    Not my problem is much easier, and we wonder why we're in the shape were in.
    Only an authority figure can act...come on
    I guess it confirms one statistic. in a crisis situation 80% will do nothing, 10% will do the wrong thing, and 10% will do the right thing, which in this case is save the women LIFE!
    I would be interested in hearing you elaborate your statement...

    Are you saying that the "right thing" to do is to kill the man harming the woman?
    Even if you have no idea what the situation is?
    Even if the police may have been called already?

    Since you separated "doing nothing" as a different statistic, what would be the "wrong thing" to do?
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    My own thoughts would have been the following as in order of importance to my own view:

    1) Rescue and secure the child;
    2) Dial 911...And state persons are being assaulted with lethal weapons in the immediate;
    3) Leave.

    Yes, I know that third item is harsh...But aside from some very specific conditions that is what I'd do.
    I have no idea who is the BG, who is the GG, and who was the instigator (there is always one of each!).

    As well my primary thought as a default has to be my own safety and security.
    My own kids depend on that.

    There after my own morals require me to do what I can to care for the child.
    In doing so me going into to become one among the fray does not further enable me to ensure active security of the child.

    Further now I become a secondary instigator as not just by the view of all others involved, but by the eye of a hindsight is 20/20 jury too.
    Even as my intent to act/react might have been in the immediate per my understanding of the situations dynamic, nothing but pure & benevolent.

    The situation to my view per the OPs third person reporting is largely full of suck and circumstance.
    As much as I would not want to see _any person_ being assaulted, regardless of gender!, I would likely act in a carefully measured response for these reasons.

    - Janq is not a police nor Captain Sav-A-Dope
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bay City
    Posts
    2,271
    Quote Originally Posted by Damon1976 View Post
    I cant say for sure what I would have done. But this scenario goes right back to my thread from last week: Opportunity, Ability and Intent. And while all of us on here know we would never like to be placed in the middle of a situation like that I much like you dont know if I would have been able to stand by and watch a woman be hit in the face with a rock like that either.
    I guess I am not sure if your saying you think that you could not come to the womans aid because the situation as presented does not meet the standard of O-A-I?

    I would think that in states where you are allowed to come to the aid of another person, you would need to apply the evaluation to the victum, in this case the woman.
    Does the guy with the rock have opportunity to injury the woman; He already is, does he have ability, a rock would qualify, has he displayed intent, he is already hitting her.

    I am not taking the position that coming on this scene would I would automaticially shoot, nor can I say I would not shoot. Really tough call.
    Imagine you shot the guy with the rock, only to have the little girl run over and cry, "Daddy" as he fell. Then you find out the woman had grabbed the child, and the fathers friends were busy keeping her accomplishes off the dad while he wrestled the little girl from the womans grip. By then adrenelin dump got the best of him and he continued to use the rock after she let go of the girl.

  11. #26
    Member Array guardmt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    404
    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I guess I am not sure if your saying you think that you could not come to the womans aid because the situation as presented does not meet the standard of O-A-I?

    I would think that in states where you are allowed to come to the aid of another person, you would need to apply the evaluation to the victum, in this case the woman.
    Does the guy with the rock have opportunity to injury the woman; He already is, does he have ability, a rock would qualify, has he displayed intent, he is already hitting her.

    I am not taking the position that coming on this scene would I would automaticially shoot, nor can I say I would not shoot. Really tough call.
    Imagine you shot the guy with the rock, only to have the little girl run over and cry, "Daddy" as he fell. Then you find out the woman had grabbed the child, and the fathers friends were busy keeping her accomplishes off the dad while he wrestled the little girl from the womans grip. By then adrenelin dump got the best of him and he continued to use the rock after she let go of the girl.
    +1.
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    englewood, fl
    Posts
    1,751
    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I am not taking the position that coming on this scene would I would automaticially shoot, nor can I say I would not shoot. Really tough call.
    Imagine you shot the guy with the rock, only to have the little girl run over and cry, "Daddy" as he fell. Then you find out the woman had grabbed the child, and the fathers friends were busy keeping her accomplishes off the dad while he wrestled the little girl from the womans grip. By then adrenelin dump got the best of him and he continued to use the rock after she let go of the girl.
    therein lies the rub...once you have commited you may have no choice but to shoot depending on his reaction...once you have introduced the possibility of deadly force the likelyhood it will be employed is greater...and when all is said and done the whole story may ot be what we thought it would...

    an option is making enough noise to let the involved know that the police are on their way and that if anyone wants to avoid going to jail now would be the time to haulass....you might get lucky and appeal to someones desire for freedom...or they might turn on you and deadly force will be necessary...

    very tough call...i vote secure the child and make some noise while attempting to leave the situation...then see where it goes...

  13. #28
    Member Array SigHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    The Natural State
    Posts
    156
    Can we really say that these women are "used" to getting beaten simply because they aren't fighting back?
    And is it logical then to make the assumption that, even if they are used to it, they have "made their beds" and are somehow deserving of getting beaten to death?
    And what if the man doing the beating is indeed justified in the attack (or defense) because the woman was the initiator - does this mean that he is legally allowed to attack her after any threat she may have posed is clearly nonexistent now? It would appear that, if the woman was the initiator, her threat is clearly over, and the man's act of self-defense has now become assault, even if it is an "adrenaline dump." Again, just food for thought.
    I think removing the child from danger is the first move, followed by a 911 call, then a verbal warning to the attacker. I honestly think the savageness of the rock beating would motivate me to intervene in some form. I didn't ask to be put in that situation, but if I found myself in it, I could not stand by waiting for the police to arrive if the woman's life was clearly in immediate danger. Am I saying that I would pull my weapon? Not at first, but I would consider it if other methods did not work. I would even consider firing a few rounds in the air before pointing the weapon at someone.
    SigPro 2340
    Bersa Thunder Plus .380

  14. #29
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Davies View Post
    Yet, on the other hand, to try and wade in or to attempt to intervene, even from a safe distance, in a group like this is to invite big trouble. I might be prepared to shoot the guy with the rock bashing the woman's head, but am I willing/prepared to shoot the other 3 drunk guys when they rush me waving rocks and 2x4s??


    This seems a situation with no really good options and a lot of potential for multiple really bad outcomes. What are your thoughts!!!

    Especially if all you have is 8 rounds in your .45 and nothing in reserve, eh?
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,712
    Especially if all you have is 8 rounds in your .45 and nothing in reserve, eh?


    Yes sir, you betcha!! Listening to the nurse at work tell the story and thinking thru the implications has caused me to think about carrying a spare mag on a routine basis.
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
    - Ronald Reagan

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Real Life Scenario
    By WVConcealed in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: February 23rd, 2009, 09:35 AM
  2. Real Life Scenario
    By BlackPR in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: February 20th, 2009, 08:41 AM
  3. Real Life SHTF Scenario
    By Diesel 007 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: February 20th, 2008, 05:22 PM
  4. Real life scenario , What would you do ?
    By speedlinehobbies in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: December 8th, 2006, 02:22 PM
  5. First Real Life Scenario
    By Mr. Clean in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: November 25th, 2006, 09:52 AM

Search tags for this page

real life scenarios for gun control

,

week four real life scenario

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors