real life scenario from this past week...

This is a discussion on real life scenario from this past week... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BikerRN Quote from SigHawk: "I would even consider firing a few rounds in the air before pointing the weapon at someone." Being ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array SigHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Quote from SigHawk:
    "I would even consider firing a few rounds in the air before pointing the weapon at someone."

    Being that you are responsible for every round you fire, and every round has a lawyer attatched to it, you may want to reconsider such a negligent plan as a solution to the conundrum.

    Biker
    If you are suggesting that bullets fired straight up into the air are lethal on their return path to the earth, you are mistaken (check out the definition of "terminal velocity"). After a bullet leaves the barrel of a weapon, it is constantly slowing down. If fired straight up, it will eventually slow down and stop as it fights against gravity. Once gravity takes over completely, the bullet will return to the ground, but it weighs so very little that it cannot reach a lethal velocity by only the pull of gravity. I won't do the math at this point (unless necessary), but presumably after a few hundred feet of free fall, the bullet will stop accelerating and achieve a maximum velocity that would likely bruise someone that happens to be under when it lands. So, the miniscule risk of brusing someone is far outweighed by the possiblity of stopping a brutal beating that could take someone's life - hardly a negligent plan. In fact, more likely a responsible plan.
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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigHawk View Post
    If you are suggesting that bullets fired straight up into the air are lethal on their return path to the earth, you are mistaken (check out the definition of "terminal velocity"). After a bullet leaves the barrel of a weapon, it is constantly slowing down. If fired straight up, it will eventually slow down and stop as it fights against gravity. Once gravity takes over completely, the bullet will return to the ground, but it weighs so very little that it cannot reach a lethal velocity by only the pull of gravity. I won't do the math at this point (unless necessary), but presumably after a few hundred feet of free fall, the bullet will stop accelerating and achieve a maximum velocity that would likely bruise someone that happens to be under when it lands. So, the miniscule risk of brusing someone is far outweighed by the possiblity of stopping a brutal beating that could take someone's life - hardly a negligent plan. In fact, more likely a responsible plan.
    Really? EVERY New Year's, there is at least one story of someone killed when struck in the head with a falling bullet.

    Are those stories ALL wrong?

    Firing into the air, or warning shots of any kind, sounds beyond dangerous, and a few other adjectives I can think of.
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  4. #48
    New Member Array King James's Avatar
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    Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by garyacman View Post
    king james
    welcome, were do you shot at ? now back to regular programing.
    I finally got used to this outdoor recreational shooting stuff and got hooked on Astros. Stan's isn't maintained well at all , unless something has drastically changed in the year since I last went there. I've also been a member of the Copperas Cove Shooting Club which is out in Kempner. They rotate weekly between IDPA, 3-Gun, and Action Pistol. I just need to drag myself out of bed at 0630 to make it there in time.

  5. #49
    New Member Array King James's Avatar
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    Bring'em On!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JB-Norcal View Post
    If you want to see a group scatter, just yell "COPS, RUN". If that causes the threat to be turn towards you then at least the guy stopped pounding a rock into a girls skull. I think I can outrun a drunk, if not, bang, bang.
    Unfortunately, I've known a few that would be willing to take on the cops too, so they'd definitely get 2-3. "No, your honor. I was not trying to kill him. I was attempting to STOP THE THREAT." I can't help it that he was pronounced at the scene.

  6. #50
    New Member Array King James's Avatar
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    I was sitting here thinking through this senerio and looked over at my wife sitting over on the couch. I then mentally replaced the woman being attacked, with my wife. I'm at home. Leaving a resturant, she and a girlfriend were jumped by these 4 drunk guys. I'm at home, but you're there armed to the teeth. King Kong wouldn't stand a chance. You call 911 and leave to catch the aftermath on the news. My wife dies. . .
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigHawk View Post
    If you are suggesting that bullets fired straight up into the air are lethal on their return path to the earth, you are mistaken (check out the definition of "terminal velocity"). After a bullet leaves the barrel of a weapon, it is constantly slowing down. If fired straight up, it will eventually slow down and stop as it fights against gravity. Once gravity takes over completely, the bullet will return to the ground, but it weighs so very little that it cannot reach a lethal velocity by only the pull of gravity. I won't do the math at this point (unless necessary), but presumably after a few hundred feet of free fall, the bullet will stop accelerating and achieve a maximum velocity that would likely bruise someone that happens to be under when it lands. So, the miniscule risk of brusing someone is far outweighed by the possiblity of stopping a brutal beating that could take someone's life - hardly a negligent plan. In fact, more likely a responsible plan.
    I beg to differ in your assumption. Can you please provide any source for your conclusion? Please see the following contradictions.

    MythBusters Episode 50: Bullets Fired Up

    Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.

    busted / plausible / confirmed

    In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time.
    Celebratory gunfire
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Celebratory gunfire is the shooting of a firearm into the air in celebration. It is culturally accepted in the Balkans, the Middle East, the South Asian regions of Northern India as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan and Latin American regions such as Puerto Rico as well as some areas of the United States. Common occasions for celebratory gunfire include New Year's Day as well as the religious holidays Christmas and Eid.[1] The practice may result in random death and injury from stray bullets. Property damage is sometimes another result of celebratory gunfire; shattered windows and damaged roofs are often found after such celebrations.[2] Describing the practice, an American sheriff from Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, David A. Clarke Jr., said, "Even though some consider this a tradition, it is extremely dangerous and a violation of the law. In densely populated urban areas, this behavior is not only illegal, but it's reckless. There is no way of predicting where the bullet will land."[3] However, it is generally not as dangerous if one uses blank rounds.[4]

    Falling-bullet injuries
    People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.

    A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]

    Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets and found that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) and larger .50 caliber bullets have a terminal velocity of 500 feet per second (150 m/s).[8] A bullet traveling at only 150 feet per second (46 m/s) to 170 feet per second (52 m/s) can penetrate human skin,[9] and at less than 200 feet per second (60 m/s) it can penetrate the skull.[10] A bullet that does not penetrate the skull may still result in an intracranial injury.[11]

    In 2005, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) ran education campaigns on the dangers of celebratory gunfire in Serbia and Montenegro.[12] In Serbia, the campaign slogan was "every bullet that is fired up, must come down."[13]

    Notable incidents
    This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

    * December 1859: An autopsy showed that a native servant in India, who suddenly fell dead for no apparent reason, was mortally wounded from a bullet fired from a distance too far for the shot to be heard. The falling bullet had sufficient energy to pass through the victim's shoulder, a rib, a lung, his heart and his diaphragm.[17]
    * January 1, 1996: A grandmother in Detroit named Sandra Latham was killed on New Year's Day from bullet from celebratory firing as she sat in her living room.
    * December 31, 1994: A tourist from Boston was killed by a falling bullet from celebratory firing while walking on the Moonwalk in the French Quarter of New Orleans, Louisiana. The Police Department there has been striving to educate the public on the danger since then, frequently making arrests for firing into the air.[18]
    * July 22, 2003: More than 20 people were reported killed in Iraq from celebratory gunfire following the deaths of Saddam Hussein's sons Uday and Qusay in 2003.[16]
    * December 31, 2004: A 75-year-old man in Orlando, Florida, was mortally wounded in the heart from a falling bullet just before midnight. Police later traced the fatal bullet to a gun confiscated from a man firing into the air more than a mile away. The shooter was charged with manslaughter.[19]
    * January 1, 2005: A stray bullet hit a young girl during New Year celebrations in the central square of downtown Skopje, Macedonia. She died two days later. This incident led to the 2006 IANSA awareness campaign in that country.[1]
    * December 28, 2005: A 23-year-old U.S. Army private on leave after basic training fired a 9 mm pistol into the air in celebration with friends, according to police, and one of the bullets came through a fifth-floor apartment window in the New York City borough of Queens, striking a 28-year-old mother of two in the eye. Her husband found her lifeless body moments later. The shooter had been drinking the night before and turned himself in to police the next morning when he heard the news. He was charged with second-degree manslaughter and weapons-related crimes,[20][21] and was later found guilty and sentenced to four to 12 years in prison.[22]
    * February 25, 2007: Five people were killed by stray bullets fired at a kite festival in Lahore, Pakistan, including a 6-year-old schoolboy who was struck in the head near his home in the city's Mazang area.[23]
    * July 29, 2007: At least four people were reported killed and 17 others wounded by celebratory gunfire in the capital city of Baghdad, Iraq, following the victory of the national football team in the AFC Asian Cup,[24][25] Celebratory gunfire occurred despite warnings issued by Iraqi security forces and the country's leading Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who forbade the gunfire with a religious fatwā.[26]
    * January 1, 2010: A 4-year-old boy was killed shortly after midnight while sitting in church during a midnight service in an Atlanta suburb. The cause of death was thought first to be due to falling ceiling debris until an autopsy confirmed an intracranial bullet injury to be the culprit.
    A Straight Dope Classic from Cecil's Storehouse of Human Knowledge
    Can a bullet fired into the air kill someone when it comes down?
    April 14, 1995


    Dear Cecil:

    Every so often you see it on the news: streets full of Middle Eastern men indiscriminately firing guns straight up into the air. If I learned anything from physics class, it's that what goes up must come down. I'm certain the returning projectiles don't float harmlessly to earth and wonder how often they plunge into bystanders.

    — Kathy Johnson, Madison, Wisconsin

    Cecil replies:

    Those Middle Eastern men. You want to shake them and say: Guys! Is this the safe and sensible way to celebrate? Can't we just say "hooray!" and "whoa, baby"?

    But you raise a good point. How dangerous is this really? The question is controversial. Let me lay it out point by point.

    Datum 1. At first I thought being struck by a bullet falling straight down would be no worse than getting hit over the head with a two-by-four — not the average person's idea of fun, but not fatal either. What goes up must come down, but it needn't do so at the same speed. You run up against what's known as "terminal velocity." A bullet fired straight up will slow down, stop, then fall to earth again, accelerating until it reaches a point where its weight equals the resistance of the air. That's its terminal velocity.

    For further insight, we turn to Hatcher's Notebook (1962) by Major General Julian S. Hatcher, a U.S. Army ordnance expert. Hatcher described military tests with, among other things, a .30 caliber bullet weighing .021 pounds. Using a special rig, the testers shot the bullet straight into the air. It came down bottom (not point) first at what was later computed to be about 300 feet per second. "With the [.021 pound] bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds," Hatcher wrote. "Previously, the army had decided that on the average an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound. Thus, service bullets returning from extreme heights cannot be considered lethal by this standard."

    If 30 foot pounds doesn't mean much to you, the bullet made a mark about one-sixteenth of an inch deep in a soft pine board — about what you'd get giving it a good whack with a hammer. Note that we're talking about bullets shot straight up. If the bullet is fired more or less horizontally, it may not lose much speed before returning to earth and could easily kill someone.

    Datum 2. Then someone sent me an article from the Los Angeles Times about the problem of falling bullets in L.A. around New Year's and the Fourth of July. According to the article, doctors at King/Drew Medical Center, a major L.A. trauma center, published a report in a medical journal (Journal of Trauma, December 1994) saying that between 1985 and 1992 they treated 118 people for falling bullet injuries around New Year's Eve or the Fourth of July. Thirty-eight of the victims died.

    "There is some skepticism about the numbers reported by the King/Drew team," the article continued. "The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and the Los Angeles Police Department — which serve a vastly larger area — reported only about half a dozen deaths in the same period … Other hospitals contacted by The Times … reported few cases."

    King/Drew handles a lot more gunshot cases than other L.A. hospitals. But the King/Drew doctors also used fairly liberal criteria to identify falling-bullet victims (no gunshot heard or weapon seen, wound consistent with bullet falling from above, etc.). Given how confused trauma victims and witnesses often are about what happened, the numbers reported are probably high.

    Datum 3. Still, the question isn't how many people get injured or killed by falling bullets, it's whether such things are possible at all. On further investigation, it appears the 60 foot-pound injury threshold cited by Hatcher may be misleading — a falling bullet's kinetic energy (foot pounds) alone isn't a good predictor of the speed it needs to inflict a wound. B. N. Mattoo (Journal of Forensic Sciences, 1984) has proposed an equation relating mass and bullet diameter that seems to do a better job. Experiments on cadavers and such have shown, for example, that a .38 caliber revolver bullet will perforate the skin and lodge in the underlying tissue at 191 feet per second and that triple-ought buckshot will do so at 213 feet per second.

    Mattoo's equation predicts that Hatcher's .30 caliber bullet, which has a small diameter in relation to its weight, will perforate the skin at only 124 feet per second. It's easy to believe such a bullet falling at 300 feet per second could kill you, especially if it struck you in the head. In fact, maybe I need to rethink my dismissive comments about the danger of throwing a penny off the Empire State Building, although I still think the penny's tumbling in the updrafts would render it harmless.

    So there you have it, Middle Eastern men and gang bangers. Shooting guns randomly into the air has a high probability of being dangerous. Let's have no more of it, eh?

    — Cecil Adams
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #52
    New Member Array King James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    If you haven't run a Tueller Drill I suggest you do so. That will help to show you how fast someone can close the gap and make contact with you. Granted, being that they are kneeling on the person they are striking with the rock will slow them down a little, but probably not by as much as you think.

    Biker
    Go to Google and type in "Tueller Drill". Scroll down until you see the You Tude video entitled, "Family Duel - Tueller Drill". My CHL Instructor demonstrated it with a random student from the class. When we saw them 20' apart, most of us were kind of shocked and thought that that was a bit too far away for the BG to qualify for a lead injection, UNTIL the student rushed him and was about 2' away when we heard the first click.

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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King James View Post
    I was sitting here thinking through this senerio and looked over at my wife sitting over on the couch. I then mentally replaced the woman being attacked, with my wife. I'm at home. Leaving a resturant, she and a girlfriend were jumped by these 4 drunk guys. I'm at home, but you're there armed to the teeth. King Kong wouldn't stand a chance. You call 911 and leave to catch the aftermath on the news. My wife dies. . .
    Yep, and this is from some of the most responsible members of our society.
    You know how few people carry(have the means to help),and of those that do, you see how many would watch her die.....oh well, it's not like it's there wife.
    We are so lost.....
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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  10. #54
    Member Array Blownsvt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    Yep, and this is from some of the most responsible members of our society.
    You know how few people carry(have the means to help),and of those that do, you see how many would watch her die.....oh well, it's not like it's there wife.
    We are so lost.....
    agreed, its the laws that make people this way though. The penalty for getting involved is the problem.
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  11. #55
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    Yep, and this is from some of the most responsible members of our society.
    You know how few people carry(have the means to help),and of those that do, you see how many would watch her die.....oh well, it's not like it's there wife.
    We are so lost.....
    I beg to differ that we are lost sir.

    Your wife has the same opportunities to be responsible for her safety as my wife, or any other family member over the age of twenty one has. Why is it incumbent upon those of us that have taken responsibility for our safety to assume that mantle for another?

    Biker

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I beg to differ that we are lost sir.

    Your wife has the same opportunities to be responsible for her safety as my wife, or any other family member over the age of twenty one has. Why is it incumbent upon those of us that have taken responsibility for our safety to assume that mantle for another?

    Biker
    Beg all you want.. I bet she was too
    It's foolish to think just because you carry, or your wife carries that their safe.There are cops killed all the time. What if the women had a gun,but they were on her so quick she couldn't draw..Sucks to be her..huh...
    She should have been practicing more

    I guess your right, as we all know, and has been stated many,many times, you have no responsibility for anyone other then you and yours.


    So what if they finish beating her to death,then get up and grab another group of woman that happened to turn the corner into an unexpected situation . Cops are still 3 minutes out,do you still take notes as they beat them with rocks...there not your family...could be mine,but you don't know me..

    So they evade the police and go carjack and kill a young couple out on a first date minutes later..is that acceptable as long as it's not your family..


    IMO were lost....YMMV


    All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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  13. #57
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    IMO were lost....YMMV
    I'll send you a map so you can get un-lost.

    Biker

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I'll send you a map so you can get un-lost.

    Biker
    LOL.. I could use one
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  15. #59
    New Member Array King James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blownsvt View Post
    agreed, its the laws that make people this way though. The penalty for getting involved is the problem.
    I definitely agree with that statement. It's why I don't carry as often as I should. But, as I've continued to educate myself, practice, and began to read through these different senerios, I'm becoming more prepared to do so more regularly.



    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I beg to differ that we are lost sir.

    Your wife has the same opportunities to be responsible for her safety as my wife, or any other family member over the age of twenty one has. Why is it incumbent upon those of us that have taken responsibility for our safety to assume that mantle for another?

    Biker

    I see your point. Although, with only about 0.7% of the people in this nation serving in its military, I'm glad the mantle of this country is assumed by some of us.

    And I guess the next go round I'll ensure I get me one with better credentials:

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    Quote Originally Posted by SigHawk View Post
    If you are suggesting that bullets fired straight up into the air are lethal on their return path to the earth, you are mistaken (check out the definition of "terminal velocity"). After a bullet leaves the barrel of a weapon, it is constantly slowing down. If fired straight up, it will eventually slow down and stop as it fights against gravity. Once gravity takes over completely, the bullet will return to the ground, but it weighs so very little that it cannot reach a lethal velocity by only the pull of gravity. I won't do the math at this point (unless necessary), but presumably after a few hundred feet of free fall, the bullet will stop accelerating and achieve a maximum velocity that would likely bruise someone that happens to be under when it lands. So, the miniscule risk of brusing someone is far outweighed by the possiblity of stopping a brutal beating that could take someone's life - hardly a negligent plan. In fact, more likely a responsible plan.

    Only a bullet fired perfectly straight up is subject to terminal velocity. projectile motion is very different (if the bullet is fired into the air with any angle) I've heard at least two cases of death by falling bullet.
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