You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

This is a discussion on You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OPFOR So, your point is that you will, always , take it from a mighta coulda woulda been a shooting event to ...

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  1. #136
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, your point is that you will, always, take it from a mighta coulda woulda been a shooting event to a DEFINITE shooting event, is that correct? And you believe that this is always the safest and best course of action - introducing gunfire into a crowded, enclosed environment where there was none before? I just want to be clear on this...


    No...I have NEVER introduced that line of thought to be an ABSOLUTE....

    Do I really need to keep explaining the term "always" is NOT in my vocabulary when it comes to "shooting/defense/witness/et cetera"? The terms ACTION, and ESCALATED are for "me" in this scenario(especially as it built and built with the gunshot to the woman's leg, et cetera)

    More importantly, the moment I start over-worrying about a "crowded, enclosed environment" too much, is the moment I should just yell "bang" instead of doing something.
    BG....GUN....THREATS of DEATH...SHOT A WOMAN IN THE LEG
    Will I do something? Maybe. More than likely.
    Should I do something? Maybe. More than likely.

    What the hell am I carrying a weapon for, and trained for, and on here for guidance for, and got my CCW for???? To sit there, in that "crowded, enclosed environment", and "hope" this SOB won't shoot me next? No.....The moment has arrived. The moment....has arrived. Period.

    Once I begin taking action, and have made the decision to stop the threat because it escalated, of COURSE I am going to be concerned about others, but that is NOT going to stop me from moving forward with a decision that has been made, and a hesitation that should not present itself again from that moment forward. Do I "re-evaulate" as it's happening? Of course.

    Clear?
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

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  3. #137
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    its funny...you post on here that in a situation where the shot looks feesible and clean and some guy is tearing you up because you may be endangering his family or others taking the shot...
    False. I said don't take the shot to prove some point, or to protect property because "letting them take our stuff is morally wrong/encourages thievery/whatever." I said the attitude of "I'm shooting no matter what" is inherently bad.

    you post that you would not intervene in a situation and a guy jumps in and says you would think differently if it were your family being threatened or assaulted and you would wish someone would intervene if they had the chance...
    False. I never stated definitively if I would shoot or not, and I never mentioned at all what I would want others to do (except for the above - don't shoot to protect your "stuff" on some moral ground if it is going to endanger others there - and it absolutely WILL endanger others there).
    a crazed shooter with an assault rifle is taking people down in a walmart and there are guys who couldnt leave because they couldnt be responsible for the deaths of others they could save and are willing to go against the shooter with a handgun as opposed to get to safety...and the "if your family were in there it would be different" statement comes up...
    This has nothing to do with the OP, and has never been brought up. BTW, as an LEO and a human being I will do whatever I can to stop a shooting spree in progress - that is NOT the scenario posited by the OP.
    i honestly believe everyone who is thinking of taking the shot in this scenario is evauating the risk of doing so and may or may not change their mind in the actual scenario
    I donít believe thusly. I think there are some who have decided already that they will start shooting as soon as they can, damn the consequences.
    in the event the "thief" decides to start shooting it may be too late...then where are the families?...it happens both ways...and without the advantage of havign a crystal ball there is no way to find out what is/was/might/might not happen and whether there is a god at all...
    Agreed. All we know for sure is that if YOU shoot, there will be gunfire. If you DONíT shoot (and remember again that Iím not saying shoot or donít, Iím saying THINK) then you donít know if there will be gunfire.

    in the event you had the opportunity to take the shot and passed...then the bad guy started shooting and your family was the first to go down what would hindsight tell you?...that youre thankful that the only person to blame for this is the bad guy?...thats comforting....
    Why is there only one opportunity? There may have been a "better" opportunity at some point, but once the shooting starts (no matter the target) the dynamic has changed, dramatically. If I decided not to shoot and the BG decided to go ahead and shoot my family anyway, then my decision would have proven to be a poor one. Again, I've never said ANY action is absolutely right or wrong, all I've said is that committing to any course of action NOW, before you have any real information about the situation THEN, is...ill advised.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #138
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    then...there wouldnt be a scenario or discussion at all...

    just a bunch of people stating that they think therefore they are....

  5. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    No...I have NEVER introduced that line of thought to be an ABSOLUTE....

    Do I really need to keep explaining the term "always" is NOT in my vocabulary when it comes to "shooting/defense/witness/et cetera"? The terms ACTION, and ESCALATED are for "me" in this scenario(especially as it built and built with the gunshot to the woman's leg, et cetera)

    More importantly, the moment I start over-worrying about a "crowded, enclosed environment" too much, is the moment I should just yell "bang" instead of doing something.
    BG....GUN....THREATS of DEATH...SHOT A WOMAN IN THE LEG
    Will I do something? Maybe. More than likely.
    Should I do something? Maybe. More than likely.

    What the hell am I carrying a weapon for, and trained for, and on here for guidance for, and got my CCW for???? To sit there, in that "crowded, enclosed environment", and "hope" this SOB won't shoot me next? No.....The moment has arrived. The moment....has arrived. Period.

    Once I begin taking action, and have made the decision to stop the threat because it escalated, of COURSE I am going to be concerned about others, but that is NOT going to stop me from moving forward with a decision that has been made, and a hesitation that should not present itself again from that moment forward. Do I "re-evaulate" as it's happening? Of course.

    Clear?
    No, unclear. Your tirades on past pages indicate otherwise - they state pretty categorically that you are GOING to shoot, and keep shooting, as soon as you think you can. This, despite no shots being fired yet, despite suspected (and even KNOWN) armed accomplices that you can't engage, despite a pattern of behavior by the BG indicating that he is after "stuff" and not murder. You have made it quite clear in numerous bolded posts that you are determined to start engaging - softening your stance now notwithstanding.

    As to why you carry a gun/train/etcÖ I can only answer why I carry (off duty, anyway) Ė to have another tool available to stop a lethal force attack if and when appropriate. It certainly isnít to start a firefight where none existed, no prove my moral superiority, to make a blanket statement (in bullets) about the state of society, or for any other reason.

    There are many, many instances where I would shoot. This may or may not be one of them, based on the totality of the circumstances. That you believe thinking is tantamount to ďover analyzingĒ is disconcerting. I believe that thinking is our most valuable and effective weaponÖ
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #140
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    No, unclear. Your tirades on past pages indicate otherwise - they state pretty categorically that you are GOING to shoot, and keep shooting, as soon as you think you can.

    Yes....I am going to shoot when threatened. Reminder, whether YOU call it a "tirade" or not.
    BG....GUN....THREATENS TO SHOOT...and further on....SHOOTS.



    This, despite no shots being fired yet, despite suspected (and even KNOWN) armed accomplices that you can't engage, despite a pattern of behavior by the BG indicating that he is after "stuff" and not murder.

    1) I have indicated, (as others have) that he is a threat, and his willingness and statements and further ACTIONS as the scenario progressed further perpetuate that. YOUR "opinion" is that he is after "stuff". My opinion is that he has a gun, and he has threatened to shoot. You know, as well as we all do, that reality points us all to many instances where taking "stuff" ends up in violence, and yep....even....murder. I don't TRUST your "opinion" about "stuff" with MY life. I trust reality, and Murphy's Law, over you, any day of the week.
    ALL indications, and ALL patterns including the gunshot later on, pretty much allows me to take YOUR advice and place it somewhere where I deem it not useful to MY life...anymore.
    2) Likewise, I have indicated, that other "known or unknown" supposedly armed accomplices may come into consideration, and I stated that I would probably also have to "deal" with them, as well, if need be. If you think I'm not going to defend MY life, simply because there (again) "may, could, might", be someone else with a hostage in "another room", then you're talking to the wrong person. AGAIN, after the SOB came in with a gun, threatened to shoot, and then DID so (as the discussion progressed), then it's time for action. This isn't that difficult, for me...


    You have made it quite clear in numerous bolded posts that you are determined to start engaging - softening your stance now notwithstanding.

    Perhaps you need to be LESS judgemental, and REread my posts to see where I have numerous times engaged in "IF" I have the shot, and "IF" he runs "I become a witness, period". You're looking for me to be a "shooter", when in fact, I'm simply nothing more than an action taker who doesn't want "hesitation" to stand in the way of getting me KILLED. I don't understand why, it's taking you numerous explanations, to come to terms with this, OPFOR.

    As to why you carry a gun/train/etc… I can only answer why I carry (off duty, anyway) – to have another tool available to stop a lethal force attack if and when appropriate. It certainly isn’t to start a firefight where none existed, no prove my moral superiority, to make a blanket statement (in bullets) about the state of society, or for any other reason.

    You're assuming waaaay to much about my intentions, and you need reminding over and over again it appears, that "MY" opinion is that the BG came in with a gun, and threatened to shoot. That was MY "escalation" point. I don't need to hear what YOU want ME to do when that happens, nor do I need to hear what YOU want ME to do after he has already shot someone. We can both determine in our own minds, where "escalation" is, or isn't, individually. For you to imply that I'm trying to prove my "moral superiority" is preposterous. I just have a lower threshold for idiots walking in with a GUN and threatining to shoot people, than you do. Pretty simple....

    There are many, many instances where I would shoot. This may or may not be one of them, based on the totality of the circumstances. That you believe thinking is tantamount to “over analyzing” is disconcerting. I believe that thinking is our most valuable and effective weapon…

    Agreed here! I even mentioned turning over tables for cover, waiting for a shot if no one is running by him or behind him, not running towards the door as others are, et cetera.
    Even more so, my statement also of "start looking at the gestures of others in the room and scanning the doorways for a secondary (or more) threat coming in to aid him. Great advice, as many robberies like this could have lookouts/others in on it.
    After the initial shock, the mind has got to move on. It must, it simply must, to encounter additional "possible" threats. SA, is more than essential at that exact moment after firing. Use the adrenalin, use the rush, contain the fear, let the mind calm. The guys blood and brains are nothing more than a cursory blink in my scanning. The woman to the left of me screaming "Oh my God!" over and over is just noise that I push away."


    Plenty....of "thinking" and "analyzing" going on by ME in a few brief moments of "typing" on the "internets".
    But I'm done "overanalyzing", and "thinking" once he SHOT someone. I told you, that I re-evaluate as the situation dictates, and that I am concerned, but not OVERLY concerned about a "hostage" in another room, AFTER this SOB shot someone....

    Again, at that juncture, I am not a cop, and not a "hostage negotiator", OPFOR.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  7. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    then...there wouldnt be a scenario or discussion at all...

    just a bunch of people stating that they think therefore they are....
    Well, I'm not a huge fan of "open" scenario discussions that are supposed to have a pat or right answer, and I am leery of folks who think that they HAVE the right answer - if there can ever be said to be such a thing - especially without being in the situation.

    Yes, we should think about our mindset, our commitment, certain plausible scenarios and how we might best plan to react to them. What we should not do is think that, because somebody posted a situation on a message board, that we now have the "right" response to that (or any) scenario.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #142
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Well, I'm not a huge fan of "open" scenario discussions that are supposed to have a pat or right answer, and I am leery of folks who think that they HAVE the right answer - if there can ever be said to be such a thing - especially without being in the situation.
    Yes, we should think about our mindset, our commitment, certain plausible scenarios and how we might best plan to react to them. What we should not do is think that, because somebody posted a situation on a message board, that we now have the "right" response to that (or any) scenario.

    Indeeed.......
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  9. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Indeeed.......
    I'm still confused then. In numerous other posts you stated quite forcefully that you WOULD shoot - not only in this scenario but in just about ANY scenario where an armed BG was present... Are you retracting that?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I'm still confused then. In numerous other posts you stated quite forcefully that you WOULD shoot - not only in this scenario but in just about ANY scenario where an armed BG was present... Are you retracting that?


    You're confused because perhaps YOU have made up your mind, again, that I am nothing more than a "shooter".

    You seem to, rather easily, skim parts where the words "witness" and "if he runs" came from these fingers of mine, yeah? VERY early in the conversation, OPFOR.

    There is nothing for me to "retract", there is plenty for you to cease assuming though....




    Are people like First Sgt, SIGguy and soooo many others merely going to "shoot instantly" as well everytime like YOU are indicating I would?
    NO!!!! But in this instance, others (Sorry First Sgt/SIGguy for using your quotes) have indicated they feel he's a threat. You don't. Many, if not most of us, do.


    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Methinks the BG is ALREADY a direct threat to you, and everyone else, as soon as he enters the establishment with his weapon drawn and indicates his agenda.

    I would take the shot as soon as practical. Excellent point that another poster made, in regards to being seated and the angle of the shot. It definitely reduces the possibility of hitting someone beyond your target. JMO
    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    "DO YOU TRUST ME!!!??"


    BLAM!

    BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

    "Here's your check..."
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  11. #145
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    Its been fun watching, but cant we all just agree to disagree on this one?

  12. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back 40 View Post


    Its been fun watching, but cant we all just agree to disagree on this one?

    I'd love to agree to disagree with OPFOR.


    But I will not stand here, and appreciate him claiming *I* am taking some "moral superiority", or implying *I* am trying to be the "be all end all" (in this wonderful conversation and learning experience we all "were" having) simply because *I* and sooo many others here, deemed this BG a deadly threat the moment he came in armed and threatened to kill.

    The BS "personal" attitude, is ridiculous.....So no, apparently not "yet".
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  13. #147
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    While discussion of scenarios can be beneficial, possibly seeing things voiced by others that one might not have though about, it seems to often gravitate beyond that. Very similar to the actual scenario here. Trying impose one's own desires/concepts/will on others, rather than merely accepting another point of view, whether or not you agree with it.

  14. #148
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    Lets keep it civil :)
    Glock 19
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    Shodan, Jujutsu

  15. #149
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    While discussion of scenarios can be beneficial, possibly seeing things voiced by others that one might not have though about, it seems to often gravitate beyond that. Very similar to the actual scenario here. Trying impose one's own desires/concepts/will on others, rather than merely accepting another point of view, whether or not you agree with it.
    the question is...who is actually imposing?...

    opfor made a statement that leads one to believe that theory realm is forcing his choice on everyone else and making it the only proper choice...

    i see it differently...everyone throws choices into the hat and it gets haggled out...then someone comes in and says one cant make a decision with the information supplied and rains numerous reasons why...while reinforcing the fact that they cannot make a decision because they are not there...

    thats where the "we think therefore we are" comment came from...

    its one thing to disagree with someones choice and discuss it...its another to flush the exercise down the toilet with philosophical no related talk...

    again...its too easy to take a generic look and dismiss the discussion because its impossible to make a decision with the information supplied...let it roll and discuss possible outcomes of choices and everyone will be better for it...

    i have and would rather play devils advocate to get more information and challenge decisions that way than dismiss them altogether by taking opfors stand...if you can call it a stand...

    this is fun...please continue...

  16. #150
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with an exchange of ideas. It is when the decorum degenerates that, IMO, the value of the whole thing degenerates.

    There are so many things that change so fast in any violent situation, that real time modifications to planned responses are almost constant.

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