You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

This is a discussion on You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This type of robbery will likely NOT end in bloodshed unless it is escalated. I'd hand over my wallet and be a good witness. Unless ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    This type of robbery will likely NOT end in bloodshed unless it is escalated. I'd hand over my wallet and be a good witness. Unless he makes a threatening move towards me or my family (other than just collecting my wallet) or starts randomly shooting people, I would not shoot, though I would keep my strong hand ready to draw.
    pro-CZ's, pro-AR's, anti-CZAR's

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  3. #17
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i dont see a reason to not take the shot in this case....if its a clear lane and the shot is good its go time...a lot of people are gonna lose their appetites when they see what happens but its gonna be one less bad guy...

    i believe it would be adviseable to carefully scan for an accomplice in the mix somewhere...you dont want to turn it into a shootout....

    youve got my mouth watering with the cheesecake...
    GREAT ADD ON POINT!!!

    Yep, I'd ensure that the idiot is down (CPR for the guy is not on my mind), and start looking at the gestures of others in the room and scanning the doorways for a secondary (or more) threat coming in to aid him. Great advice, as many robberies like this could have lookouts/others in on it.


    After the initial shock, the mind has got to move on. It must, it simply must, to encounter additional "possible" threats. SA, is more than essential at that exact moment after firing. Use the adrenalin, use the rush, contain the fear, let the mind calm. The guys blood and brains are nothing more than a cursory blink in my scanning. The woman to the left of me screaming "Oh my God!" over and over is just noise that I push away.

    Ok , ok...I briefly take a moment away from clarity to notice while I'm scanning that the older gentleman in the booth beside the "lobster tank" ALSO has blueberry cheesecake!!!

    The ears would be ringing a bit at this point from the shots, so using the other senses scanning for additional threats becomes paramount. Bad guy down, but the situation has NOT ended, yet. In fact, it may just get worse.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  4. #18
    Member Array ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Just make sure you yell, "Drop the weapon" as you're shooting. So as all the witnesses can say that you gave him a chance to put his gun down.


    Now I have to check the icebox for a piece cheesecake?
    That's "Drop [bang] the [bang] wea[bang]pon".

    As far as taking the shot or not, if he is the nervous/fidgety type that appears likely to do something if someone is too slow or uncooperative, then yes, he's going down.

    If he appears calm, and is not overly threatening (other than the presence of the gun), I might cooperate and be a good witness, while being prepared if things escalate.

    Now, did somebody mention cheesecake?

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz2075bd View Post
    This type of robbery will likely NOT end in bloodshed unless it is escalated. I'd hand over my wallet and be a good witness. Unless he makes a threatening move towards me or my family (other than just collecting my wallet) or starts randomly shooting people, I would not shoot, though I would keep my strong hand ready to draw.
    I was beginning to think everyone was going to answer the same
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  6. #20
    Member Array knuts6's Avatar
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    Good info. Most classy restaurants serve alcohol, so in NC, I wouldn't be able to respond with a firearm unfortunately.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Just make sure you yell, "Drop the weapon" as you're shooting. So as all the witnesses can say that you gave him a chance to put his gun down.


    Now I have to check the icebox for a piece cheesecake?
    Why would you do this and give the BG a chance to shoot you? We're under no obligation to fight the fair fight, nor are we trying to apprehend someone...they posed as a threat....they get treated as a threat.

    For clarification, if he turns and runs away--then he's no longer a threat and you can't shoot him.

    Quote Originally Posted by cz2075bd View Post
    This type of robbery will likely NOT end in bloodshed unless it is escalated. I'd hand over my wallet and be a good witness. Unless he makes a threatening move towards me or my family (other than just collecting my wallet) or starts randomly shooting people, I would not shoot, though I would keep my strong hand ready to draw.
    IMO...it's already escalated from a mugging to a robbery once a weapon is introduced.

    The time between the wallet is taken and a threatening move is made can be microseconds....if you're not in the MINDSET to act...you're already behind the curve....a lot.

    If the BG has introduced a weapon, I am assuming he is going to use it. I'm looking for my narrow window of opprotunity to draw and stop the threat.

    Here's one for you...they'll collect your wallet after your dead.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  8. #22
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz2075bd View Post
    This type of robbery will likely NOT end in bloodshed unless it is escalated. I'd hand over my wallet and be a good witness. Unless he makes a threatening move towards me or my family (other than just collecting my wallet) or starts randomly shooting people, I would not shoot, though I would keep my strong hand ready to draw.

    Respectfully, and I say this with the utmost niceness, the idiot walked into the room AS a threat, and threatened everyone even more with "I'll shoot".

    I'm sorry, but I don't carry to be nice, or to take any chances on what kind of person such as this "might" or "might not" do.

    I'm honestly (and I'm trying to be respectful here) trying to understand why you carry a deadly weapon in the first place? I don't mean to sound harsh, but THIS, is the moment of clarity, if any, as to why we all here carry.

    There are enough stories, and there is certainly enough reality, that shows we must, as carriers of deadly weapons, take a measure of accountablity and responsibility, to END these kinds of things. "IF" I cannot take action for a multitude of reasons, I don't go chasing him out the door. I certainly then, of course, become that "witness".
    The very reason people think they can get away with it, and often do, and often keep doing so, and often move on to bigger and braver and more dangerous threats in the future that could endanger a pregnant mother, a small child, or a Grandpa that's simply enjoying his blueberry cheescake (*******! ) is because these criminals are not STOPPED.

    Stop them, cease their BS, and end their "career".

    "Escalation" can happen in milliseconds in the mind of a human. Once "escalation" happens, it's too late, often.

    Honestly, I would rather end this guy's life, than sit there and have him shoot a woman in the chest to set an example to everyone in the room. It DOES happen. There's your "escalation".
    Which memory do you want for the rest of your life? Her eyes going shut and her going limp on the table face first in her lasagna in front of her three kids screaming? Or, this idiot face down on the floor....

    It's just my opinion, but I don't wait for "escalation", it's too risky.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  9. #23
    Member Array Monkeytown's Avatar
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    What he said^^^^^^^^
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

    Steps in the stripping of State's Rights/Sovereignty
    1. War of Northern Agression 2. Coersion to ratify the 14th Amendment 3. Ratified 17th Amendment

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Lethal force has been introduced (by him) not you.
    From the moment he decides to kill you ( in his head) that you don't know about, you have zero time to react. No one is that fast. You make the call, either way, and go with it. I don't have that much faith in the benevolence of an armed robber.

  11. #25
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    It all depends on the totality of the situation, and how it is actually playing out.

    Like someone already said, if he seems like a cool professional, and has already gotten loot from a dozen or so other patrons without a hitch, I may, and I say may, give him my loot and let him be on his way.

    Now, with that said... In all actuality, it rarely happens that way, in my opinion. I would say, in all likelihood, he is going to be wild eyed and very jittery. He may even likely be pointing his gun at people with his finger fully on the trigger and may have even pistol whipped a patron or two in his run up to his last moments on earth. In this case... and probably more realistic, he is going to be highly unpredictable and can end up shooting at any moment. If that is the case and he is at the table right next to me and I am clearly his next target in line, I'm likely gonna shoot him dead. Whether I shoot him in the back as he works the table immediately before mine or whether I wait and shoot him just as he is turning towards me will be decided upon as it happens. I would think I would blast him with a full magazine just as he turns to face me, but I really don't know until it happens.

    Again, it is really going to depend on the totality of the circumstances as I will be constantly evaluating things moment to moment as they play out. I'm not a hero nor am I a LEO. I'm not a fan of shootings inside a crowded restaurant if it can be avoided. I'm not a fan of intervening and possibly playing a big role in making things worse if there's any other option. But I'm also not a fan of negotiating for my life based on the whim of an armed robber who is desperate and unpredictable.

    I'm not unaware of what happened at Lubby's a couple decades ago, but that scenario was definitely different than the one presented here, but it will likely be in the back of my mind.

    Remember, once your gun barks, you forever remove any possibility of him leaving without anyone getting hurt. And if no one has been injured up to that point and things are going like an assembly line robbery, what are the real chances of him trying to kill all the witnesses in a crowded restaurant after he gets all his loot. Just something to keep in mind.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    as has been stated...he introduced deadly force with the gun in everyones face...that i my opinion meets every criteria for my life being in danger...

    waiting for him to decide hwether or not he isgoing to randomly shoot anyone or walk away calmly isnt comforting to me at all...especially if i am near the end of the collection line which is where i would expect him to shoot if he decides to...once his collections are complete....

    i dont believe anyone who carries a firearm for self defense is going to shoot in a situation like this...what i do believe is that if you wait for him to point the gun at you and you expect to surprize and outdraw him at that point...you are playing a fools game...if i am in harms way and i have an opportunity to change that...i will....if i have an out i will choose that...but i am ot taking a gun in my face and the chance hes gonna be a good boy....not a good bet in my opinion...if hes already got the drop on me i have to be patient and wait for an opportunity...i'm not a cowboy...if he doesnt have the drop on me i will neutralize with discretion...period....

    and there will be no warning...if you want to give him the chance to take someone with him you might want to let him know youre coming...otherwise it doesnt matter what everyone else says...he showed up with a gun...its a good shoot...period...

  13. #27
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Half of me wants to give my wallet and valuables to him to avoid conflict. The other half says I am sick of people like this and I am not giving my stuff away and being a victim and being compliant doesn't always mean you wont get shot. Tough one.

  14. #28
    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    I think I'm the only one who said don't shoot, at least don't yet, and I'm taking some flak for it. Let me clarify/dig in. I'm not going to shoot him in the back when he has already collected from several patrons without injuring them. What if I do shoot and it doesn't take him down right away, and he shoots back at me & my family? I lose my daughter? Or he shoots back, misses and but hits other patrons? I will get my a$$ sued off. Now at the first moment that I am feeling like my life is going to end (or someone in my family) then I will shoot but not until. I realize I can't outdraw him but I also can't take the first shot, in the back, when it seems there is a fair chance that nobody will get hurt if I just go along with it.
    pro-CZ's, pro-AR's, anti-CZAR's

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Half of me wants to give my wallet and valuables to him to avoid conflict. The other half says I am sick of people like this and I am not giving my stuff away and being a victim and being compliant doesn't always mean you wont get shot. Tough one.
    Here's the thing...at this point in the scenario...there is no avoiding....you're IN the conflict....
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I will get my a$$ sued off.
    Whats more important. your money or your life? however that argument cuts both ways, cause you can say you'd rather give your money than further risk life :p.
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