You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

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Thread: You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

  1. #61
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    Whew, the testosterone and bravado in here is making me all tingly...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Lets add a spin to this...

    There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who will not give up his wallet on principle. You are at table....#18(a far corner away from #2).. he is shot in the leg what would you do if....

    1.) Upon the shot everyone screams but remains seated in fear of being the next one...BG moves to table #3 after taking #2s wallet.

    2.) Upon the shot panic starts and everyone gets up and either runs for cover or runs out the door...you hear a couple more shots from BG but now 50 people are running around crossing your Line of sight...the emergency exit is being crowded by bodies stampeding. do you try and risk squeezing through the door? do you go for cover? do you risk hitting an innocent running around?
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  4. #63
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    Here in the hills, our classy restaurant is Hardy's (=Carl's for your west coasters, similar to McDonald's).

    Hard to call: I certainly carry to remove threats to my family. Yet if the fellow has a track record with the other customers of taking their stuff and moving on, he may be a bit more predictable than the thug in the alley. [I]Assuming [/I]the predictability of a bad guy is iffy, but assuming he's working alone is pretty iffy as well: the girlfriend covering the cashier would be disastrous if I were to take the shot. I would expect her to shoot the cashier or a patron or come after me (and now it's a gunfight in a crowd) - I doubt she would merely run away. Too, one-shot-and-he-drops-dead isn't guaranteed: at the very least I would expect him to fire off a round from a convulsive grip even if he's not aiming.

    I think my likelihood would be to play along with the bad guy rather than shoot. No criticism for any different responses, of course.

    May God keep us out of tight situations, and give us grace to call it correctly should we need to.


    I can certainly understand the part I bolded above. There are so many variables to these kinds of discussions, and we all are bringing up great points and it's good to discuss them. Everyone has their decisions and very valid points to them. Yeah, it's possible that there is someone out in the other areas covering the cashier et cetera, and we should be mindful of it.

    But here is my stance, and others may agree, or disagree.

    My concern, and the most important thing in my life, is to ensure that *I* walk out of that building alive, along with my family, alive...
    I don't trust the "BG" to not escalate, and if there are others working with him, so be it, there are others to "deal" with. *I* am walking out of the place alive, and if I have to level it, and/or the entire block in the process with hell, vengeance, and destruction, so be it. This mentality, this lack of hesitation, this PURPOSE, is what will MORE THAN likely keep me and my family alive.
    I personally, am not willing to sit at that table, and not take action (given this situation we are discussing) because I think there "may" be a cashier being held up by another "BG" in another section of the restaurant. NOTHING....or NO ONE, is my concern except for me and mine when this moment comes to fruition. I'm not a cop, and I'm not a hostage negotiator at this point, I am simply someone with a "family" in this scenario, and I'm not willing to hesitate pondering whether a "hostage" is in another room. What if I don't act because I think that, and the ONE guy in the room begins shooting at MY table?
    ---->(I know this mentality mindset comes from 10 years in the military, plus I am an avid "survivalist/camper/hiker/et cetera", and that my wife died in 2008, and it's only ME for my 11 yr old son now. I am all he has, and I intend to ensure noone, hurts him, nor me. But personally, I think we are deadly weapon carriers for one reason. And that reason neeeeeeds to have cold, hard feelings attached to them now, because our lives depend on it, quite frankly.)

    Yes, this is cold. Yes, this is a decision. Yes, this is how I'm walking out with my blueberry cheesecake, to go.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    I don't go to classy restaurants because my wife always wants to order the most expensive thing on the menu....
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Lets add a spin to this...

    There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who will not give up his wallet on principle. You are at table....#18(a far corner away from #2).. he is shot in the leg what would you do if....

    1.) Upon the shot everyone screams but remains seated in fear of being the next one...BG moves to table #3 after taking #2s wallet.

    2.) Upon the shot panic starts and everyone gets up and either runs for cover or runs out the door...you hear a couple more shots from BG but now 50 people are running around crossing your Line of sight...the emergency exit is being crowded by bodies stampeding. do you try and risk squeezing through the door? do you go for cover? do you risk hitting an innocent running around?
    Sounds like you are/were a waiter. Me too, once upon a time.

    At this point my threshold for intervening with lethal force has been met. However, my first priority is to create distance+cover between the BG and myself/family. But if I can get a clear shot at the BG, I'd take it. There is still the risk that LE could arrive at any moment and shoot at the first guy they see w/ a gun drawn, need to watch for that.
    pro-CZ's, pro-AR's, anti-CZAR's

  7. #66
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Lets add a spin to this...

    There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who will not give up his wallet on principle. You are at table....#18(a far corner away from #2).. he is shot in the leg what would you do if....

    1.) Upon the shot everyone screams but remains seated in fear of being the next one...BG moves to table #3 after taking #2s wallet.

    Nothing changes for me here. He made intent to shoot earlier and was going to die when he got to my table either way. Now I'm even more pissed.



    2.) Upon the shot panic starts and everyone gets up and either runs for cover or runs out the door...you hear a couple more shots from BG but now 50 people are running around crossing your Line of sight...the emergency exit is being crowded by bodies stampeding. do you try and risk squeezing through the door? do you go for cover? do you risk hitting an innocent running around?


    Ahh, here's where it changes.
    I don't go for the door as all the other sheep are running towards! The BG is more than likely going to be confused at everyone running. Mayhem ensues. He may or may not be shooting. He may just have an "oh ****" moment and find another way out.
    I find cover. My last concern is the fine china on the tables. A table, or two, is quickly flipped over (dangit', the cheesecake!!!), and I do NOT fire at this point. The family is behind cover, laying. The intent is to watch what he's going to do. This reminds me of "Libby's" at this point, except where the gunman there was walking around shooting people who were UNARMED.
    I continue watching his actions. If I have a clear shot from "my" practiced distance with no one running past now and no one behind him, I take it, from behind cover, rested, controlled, focused. Otherwise, I wait for him to get nearer to me, if he begins shooting at people laying there on the ground, cowering. (I hate that thought btw, it's such a bad way to die).

    If he runs, I am a witness, period.

    Bolded quotes above. Good scenarios!
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are/were a waiter. Me too, once upon a time.
    No, never was a waiter....I did work at a Subway though, only food service i've had.
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  9. #68
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Lets add a spin to this...

    There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who will not give up his wallet on principle. You are at table....#18(a far corner away from #2).. he is shot in the leg what would you do if....

    1.) Upon the shot everyone screams but remains seated in fear of being the next one...BG moves to table #3 after taking #2s wallet.

    tactical drama...i am going to look like a scared little boy until he gets near enough to me for me to make a kill shot or multiple kills shots...he was gonna get it anyway...now ive got every good reason in the world to add some balance to his world...

    2.) Upon the shot panic starts and everyone gets up and either runs for cover or runs out the door...you hear a couple more shots from BG but now 50 people are running around crossing your Line of sight...the emergency exit is being crowded by bodies stampeding. do you try and risk squeezing through the door? do you go for cover? do you risk hitting an innocent running around?
    space and cover are my friends...i dont want a long shot under a stressful situation but i'll take whatever opportunity i have...if he is moving and affords the opportunity for me to rush him behind a wall of bullets i will treat him to one...if there is a lot of activity around him (which appears to be the situation with panic) i take cover or exit...whichever is most easily accomplished at the time...and i still want the cheesecake

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    I can certainly understand the part I bolded above. There are so many variables to these kinds of discussions, and we all are bringing up great points and it's good to discuss them. Everyone has their decisions and very valid points to them. Yeah, it's possible that there is someone out in the other areas covering the cashier et cetera, and we should be mindful of it.

    But here is my stance, and others may agree, or disagree.

    My concern, and the most important thing in my life, is to ensure that *I* walk out of that building alive, along with my family, alive...
    I don't trust the "BG" to not escalate, and if there are others working with him, so be it, there are others to "deal" with. *I* am walking out of the place alive, and if I have to level it, and/or the entire block in the process with hell, vengeance, and destruction, so be it. This mentality, this lack of hesitation, this PURPOSE, is what will MORE THAN likely keep me and my family alive.
    I personally, am not willing to sit at that table, and not take action (given this situation we are discussing) because I think there "may" be a cashier being held up by another "BG" in another section of the restaurant. NOTHING....or NO ONE, is my concern except for me and mine when this moment comes to fruition. I'm not a cop, and I'm not a hostage negotiator at this point, I am simply someone with a "family" in this scenario, and I'm not willing to hesitate pondering whether a "hostage" is in another room. What if I don't act because I think that, and the ONE guy in the room begins shooting at MY table?
    ---->(I know this mentality mindset comes from 10 years in the military, plus I am an avid "survivalist/camper/hiker/et cetera", and that my wife died in 2008, and it's only ME for my 11 yr old son now. I am all he has, and I intend to ensure noone, hurts him, nor me. But personally, I think we are deadly weapon carriers for one reason. And that reason neeeeeeds to have cold, hard feelings attached to them now, because our lives depend on it, quite frankly.)

    Yes, this is cold. Yes, this is a decision. Yes, this is how I'm walking out with my blueberry cheesecake, to go.
    Interesting theory... I see it's only you and your family that matters. The lives and safety of say 10 or 12 other innocent people and children, maybe more killed or wounded in the crossfire should your actions go bad is of absolutely no concern to you what so ever. Any collateral damage because you made a poor decision has no bearing on your actions. I wonder who your wife would blame if your kid was one of the ones who caught a bullet in the face?

    I wonder if the prosecutor would let you share in some of the culpability along with the bad guy?

    I'm just sayin'... and by the way... I'm just playing devils advocate here. Just trying to provoke some thoughtful reflection
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Bolded quotes above. Good scenarios!
    Thanks!
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  12. #71
    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    Take the clear shot and empty the wheel or mag done

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Interesting theory... I see it's only you and your family that matters. The lives and safety of say 10 or 12 other innocent people and children, maybe more killed or wounded in the crossfire should your actions go bad is of absolutely no concern to you what so ever. Any collateral damage because you made a poor decision has no bearing on your actions. I wonder who your wife would blame if your kid was one of the ones who caught a bullet in the face?

    I wonder if the prosecutor would let you share in some of the culpability along with the bad guy?

    I'm just sayin'... and by the way... I'm just playing devils advocate here. Just trying to provoke some thoughtful reflection
    No problem playing "devils advocate"

    My point is that I will stop at nothing to ensure MY family is taken care of.

    I most certainly believe in the safety of others, otherwise, I wouldn't offer my very own LIFE to stand up and try and ensure this "BG" is done with so that he couldn't harm others. I think that, in and of itself, says a great deal about the measure of a man, and a human, if anything.

    I've never stated I would randomly fire, or purposely put others in the way of said fire. I've been clear on that, and it's of course very important to me. But we are dealing with our lives here, our very lives. When I speak of "leveling" the area, it's meaning nothing more than meeting a possible MASSIVE force, with MASSIVE action. It's simply indicating that I will do everything possible, whether it's one lone nut that just needs ONE bullet, or whether it's 15-20 armed criminals intent on killing everyone in the room. THIS, is my point. Something of that magnitude, most certainly, requires one to "step out of the box", and are we capable of doing what it takes or at least "trying" to do so, in such a circumstance? At that point, TOTAL WAR, and the mindset of survival by any means necessary, is going to have to be implemented. It simply is, IMHO.

    But let me be clear. NO ONE, comes before the safety of my family.
    I could care less about a "prosecutor" when it comes to whether or not my family lives or dies. I offer carnage...AGAINST carnage, Bark'n.
    Sometimes, sadly, in the most dire of situations, it actually becomes the last resort.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Blade's comment on making sure that there are no accomplice's is right on IMO. That is a large group of people to take on by a single BG...very risky.

    Also, the news article where the guy had the back pocket .380.....the perp took 3 solid hits and still ran 100 yds before dying. Never forget that your shots may not immediately STOP any further action on the bg's part....he may still go down fighting and you end up with collateral damage.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Respectfully, and I say this with the utmost niceness, the idiot walked into the room AS a threat, and threatened everyone even more with "I'll shoot".

    I'm sorry, but I don't carry to be nice, or to take any chances on what kind of person such as this "might" or "might not" do.

    I'm honestly (and I'm trying to be respectful here) trying to understand why you carry a deadly weapon in the first place? I don't mean to sound harsh, but THIS, is the moment of clarity, if any, as to why we all here carry.

    There are enough stories, and there is certainly enough reality, that shows we must, as carriers of deadly weapons, take a measure of accountablity and responsibility, to END these kinds of things. "IF" I cannot take action for a multitude of reasons, I don't go chasing him out the door. I certainly then, of course, become that "witness".
    The very reason people think they can get away with it, and often do, and often keep doing so, and often move on to bigger and braver and more dangerous threats in the future that could endanger a pregnant mother, a small child, or a Grandpa that's simply enjoying his blueberry cheescake (*******! ) is because these criminals are not STOPPED.

    Stop them, cease their BS, and end their "career".

    "Escalation" can happen in milliseconds in the mind of a human. Once "escalation" happens, it's too late, often.

    Honestly, I would rather end this guy's life, than sit there and have him shoot a woman in the chest to set an example to everyone in the room. It DOES happen. There's your "escalation".
    Which memory do you want for the rest of your life? Her eyes going shut and her going limp on the table face first in her lasagna in front of her three kids screaming? Or, this idiot face down on the floor....

    It's just my opinion, but I don't wait for "escalation", it's too risky.
    This would be my line of thinking..
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz2075bd View Post
    I think I'm the only one who said don't shoot, at least don't yet, and I'm taking some flak for it. Let me clarify/dig in. I'm not going to shoot him in the back when he has already collected from several patrons without injuring them. What if I do shoot and it doesn't take him down right away, and he shoots back at me & my family? I lose my daughter? Or he shoots back, misses and but hits other patrons? I will get my a$$ sued off. Now at the first moment that I am feeling like my life is going to end (or someone in my family) then I will shoot but not until. I realize I can't outdraw him but I also can't take the first shot, in the back, when it seems there is a fair chance that nobody will get hurt if I just go along with it.
    I am not disagreeing with you, just pointing out some things.

    See bold: in most states you can legally shoot him in the back (if he's got the gun out) and you do not have to give any verbal warning either.

    Also, while sitting down gives the angle advantage, it immediately turns into a disadvantage when the bg spins to see who shot him. Because as already mentioned...and illustrated in the video posted....*immediately stopping a threat* is uncommon.

    I do completely agree with your recognition of possible collateral consequences.

    So if you are still sitting down, nowhere near cover.....er, I'd at least be thinking about moving.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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