You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... - Page 6

You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

This is a discussion on You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ctsketch Lets add a spin to this... There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Lets add a spin to this...

    There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who will not give up his wallet on principle. You are at table....#18(a far corner away from #2).. he is shot in the leg what would you do if....

    1.) Upon the shot everyone screams but remains seated in fear of being the next one...BG moves to table #3 after taking #2s wallet.

    2.) Upon the shot panic starts and everyone gets up and either runs for cover or runs out the door...you hear a couple more shots from BG but now 50 people are running around crossing your Line of sight...the emergency exit is being crowded by bodies stampeding. do you try and risk squeezing through the door? do you go for cover? do you risk hitting an innocent running around?
    If a shot is fired and I cannot immediately exit the room...I am drawing and moving for any possible cover. I will shoot if I have the shot.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)


  2. #77
    New Member Array King James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Lets add a spin to this...

    There are maybe...20 tables in this restaurant. Table #2 has a non compliant person who will not give up his wallet on principle. You are at table....#18(a far corner away from #2).. he is shot in the leg what would you do if....

    1.) Upon the shot everyone screams but remains seated in fear of being the next one...BG moves to table #3 after taking #2s wallet.



    2.) Upon the shot panic starts and everyone gets up and either runs for cover or runs out the door..you hear a couple more shots from BG but now 50 people are running around crossing your Line of sight...the emergency exit is being crowded by bodies stampeding. do you try and risk squeezing through the door? do you go for cover? do you risk hitting an innocent running around?
    1. Remain seated, draw under the table, place cell phone on table face down after hitting 911 panic button, once he was clear, fire minimum of 2 shots to chest. Keep low silohette and scan room for additional prime targets.

    2. Draw weapon, keeping a low silohette, relocate wife to cover and stand ground, and be prepared for the BG should he/they approach in the event they're trying to find another way out.
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  3. #78
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    But let me be clear. NO ONE, comes before the safety of my family.
    I could care less about a "prosecutor" when it comes to whether or not my family lives or dies.
    I agree completely.
    everyone else in the place has the same rights that I do. it is there choice to defend them selves or not.
    It is my choice to defend my family with all I have.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  4. #79
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    ... in most states you can legally shoot him in the back (if he's got the gun out) and you do not have to give any verbal warning either.

    Also, while sitting down gives the angle advantage, it immediately turns into a disadvantage when the bg spins to see who shot him. Because as already mentioned...and illustrated in the video posted....*immediately stopping a threat* is uncommon.

    I do completely agree with your recognition of possible collateral consequences.

    So if you are still sitting down, nowhere near cover.....er, I'd at least be thinking about moving.
    the gun being out and in the commition of a felony is all the cover neaded. shoot to stop the threat. forget the back, go for the back of the head or spine. lights out.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  5. #80
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbrenke View Post
    the gun being out and in the commition of a felony is all the cover neaded. shoot to stop the threat. forget the back, go for the back of the head or spine. lights out.
    I disagree, strongly, yet you refer to the reason in the next sentence.

    According to the majority of videos, new stories, and police shooting files...the bad guys rarely are 'stopped' immediately. They usually have plenty of time to shoot some more, go after you, run more than 100 yds, etc.

    I'm not going to disregard cover and/or continuing to move (and keep shooting once I've started...if I started)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #81
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    the gun being out and in the commition of a felony is all the cover neaded. shoot to stop the threat. forget the back, go for the back of the head or spine. lights out
    I also wondered to myself... if he moved slow enough, would I have time to aim for the back of the head or just take whatever COM shot I can get?
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  7. #82
    Member Array bomber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Whew, the testosterone and bravado in here is making me all tingly...
    seriously

  8. #83
    Member Array Trumpetchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puffer View Post
    This is a "similar scenario" that was given in my LEO "Oral Boards"

    LEOs were required to carry 24/7 (technically on "duty") in those days.
    The "correct" answer was
    1. Be READY to take action, but DO NOT unless you "adjudge" there is NO other recourse.
    2. Observe, & be an "expert witness"

    Why ??

    Taking "action" in a situation like this is "courting disaster" No matter how "good" you are, taking the BG down BEFORE He/She gets a shot off (even if he is Technically DEAD,) is VERY ???? Plus your round ??

    Qkay, now reality -

    I have the "T shirt"

    I was @ a restaurant with a Date when IT happened.
    1. I was an Expert shot ( an Instructor) & carrying a .357 2.5" 19.
    2. We were seated in the md. of the restaurant when it "went down."
    3. I drew & placed my gun on my thigh.
    4. Told my Date to place her purse on the table & remain calm. & say nothing.
    5. I placed my wallet ( sans my LE ID) & money clip on the table, plus my "off hand was on the table.
    6. He soon made it to the table next to us & "offered" me a shot. Did I take it ?? ( I REALLY wanted to But NO. Why ?? My call.
    7. He took our "goodies & after 2 more tables he turned & left ( 2 more ops to take him. Did I = NO.
    8. As he left I "discretely followed, because I was "worried about him confronting a "patron entering " & Panicking.
    9. In the Lobby his "partner ( a female) had the Cashier & server "covered."
    10. I watched them leave, got the "plates", called it in.
    11. RESULT
    a. BGs caught by local PD
    b. All got "stuff back"
    c. No collateral damage
    d. LOST a "girl friend". She thought I was a "coward."for not "Acting"
    It is YOUR CALL.

    Puffer
    Thank you for your good, and correct answer.

    Give up your "Things" they don't matter.

    I am AMAZED at the number of yahoos on these gun forums who seem to be just waiting for something to happen so they can use their weapon to kill someone.

    Just listen to all of the macho stuff that comes from some posts.

    Don't forget all that will happen after you kill someone, or even wound someone.

    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.

    Also consider that if you shoot someone who is very close to you, like the next table, or right at your table, that the bullet, even a hollow point, will pass through....and you better pray that it doesn't hit another innocent party.

    Let's use our brains with the responsibilty of this firearm and not think with our gonads.
    "Don't be afraid to see what you see.
    -Ronald Reagan-

  9. #84
    Member Array bomber's Avatar
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    this is how i see it going down

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  10. #85
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    hahaha "Say B**** Be Cool!!!"
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  11. #86
    Member Array bomber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    hahaha "Say B**** Be Cool!!!"
    lol....good line

  12. #87
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetchuck View Post
    ....Give up your "Things" they don't matter.
    I agree things do not matter. if there was a way to know that all they were after were things I would do nothing. but I have read the news lately. resting your hopes on the grace of a BG is foolish in the extreme


    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetchuck View Post
    I am AMAZED at the number of yahoos on these gun forums who seem to be just waiting for something to happen so they can use their weapon to kill someone.

    Just listen to all of the macho stuff that comes from some posts.
    as stated above, there is no macho in my answers, there is logical thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetchuck View Post
    Don't forget all that will happen after you kill someone, or even wound someone.

    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.
    if you had not thought of this PRIOR to getting your permit, then you need to put your weapon away until you do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetchuck View Post
    Also consider that if you shoot someone who is very close to you, like the next table, or right at your table, that the bullet, even a hollow point, will pass through....and you better pray that it doesn't hit another innocent party.
    now lets look at this. your sitting down. the BG is standing. the bullet would go where? I see a straw man argument here.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  13. #88
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetchuck View Post
    Thank you for your good, and correct answer.

    Give up your "Things" they don't matter.

    I am AMAZED at the number of yahoos on these gun forums who seem to be just waiting for something to happen so they can use their weapon to kill someone.

    Just listen to all of the macho stuff that comes from some posts.

    Don't forget all that will happen after you kill someone, or even wound someone.

    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.

    Also consider that if you shoot someone who is very close to you, like the next table, or right at your table, that the bullet, even a hollow point, will pass through....and you better pray that it doesn't hit another innocent party.

    Let's use our brains with the responsibilty of this firearm and not think with our gonads.
    actually chuck...this thread has been rather mild regarding bravado...other than theory realms misinterpreted statements regarding his family being his only concern i think everyone has been rather realistic with this one and several different considerations have been made regarding the possibilities if a shot was taken...

    as far as lawsuits are concerned its an interesting subject and geographically semi correct...in many places a situation that allows for deadly force stops a lawsuit in its tracks...a man committing the crime described here and his family is s.o.l. if they think theyre gonna get a payday out of it...in other places i guess its a consideration...

    i'm usually the first one to back off on the shot here and have taken quite a bit of flack for it...i wont try to beat a gun that is already drawn and would comply in many situations if a line isnt crossed where i see a good possibility of a poor outcome if i dont defend...

    but in a situation where i do have a say in whether a criminal who is presenting deadly force can be stopped without great risk to myself and others i will without hesitation dispatch his butt to the motherland...i am not going to pretend i could drop him with carefully placed head or medula shot...i am going to be brutaly honest and tell you i will do what it takes to end his carreer...

    at some point one has to take charge of his or her life and draw a line as to what they will submit to....i draw the line here...i will not wait for shots to be fired if i have the opportunity to take multiple clean shots...just as if i were the only one in jeopardy and i had the opportunity to do the same....thats why i carry...i am being faced with a potentially deadly threatening situation by someone who for all i know has total indifference to human life and may or may not demonstrate that after he has collected everything he wants with no blood on it...i would rather it were my choice than his....no differently than if i were threatened on the street...

    i agree..there are a lot of things that could go wrong...just as with any self defense situation...but...if the opportunity presents itself i am willing to take that chance...i am not saying that thats definately whats going to happen...many of these scenarios are impossible to read and answer with any finality unless you are there and in it...but its up for discussion and thats what its getting...and there have been some great answers both ways...and either could go horribly wrong...only with compliance there is nobody to blame when it goes bad except the bad guy...thats the safe bet...kind of....

    i dont fault anyone for taking the shot or waiting for the outcome on this one...its not a near impossible task like some scenarios involving facing a crazed shooter with an assault weapon or multiple threats with drawn weapons....its a possible ftw situation and it bears discussion both ways....

    i would think no differently were i faced with a gunman on the street and he gave me an opportunity to apply a defensive move...whether it be h2h or with a firearm....when the opportunity presents itself its go time...or you leave everything in their hands...and they really arent the ones you want making those decisions for you...

    and for the record...i hope nothing ever happens and the only draw stroke i ever see is the one i practice at the range live fire, in idpa events and home dry fire...but i do intend to be prepared and have trained for it....as i believe anyone who takes self defense seriously should....

  14. #89
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpetchuck View Post
    Thank you for your good, and correct answer.

    Give up your "Things" they don't matter.

    They don't matter....to YOU. The reason these idiots TAKE things, is because we continue to LET them. Sometimes those "things" they take in the process of taking your "wallet", is your LIFE.

    I am AMAZED at the number of yahoos on these gun forums who seem to be just waiting for something to happen so they can use their weapon to kill someone.

    Ridiculous ASSumption....
    We are all, on a forum that is called "defensive carry". No one here is sitting around "waiting" for something to happen so we all "pull our guns to kill". I think you have sorely missed the point in all of this, and that is....CRIMINALS do not give two shits about you, nor I, and we need to either get the same mentality to DEFEND ourselves, and our loved ones with the deadly weapons we all decided to carry


    Just listen to all of the macho stuff that comes from some posts.

    If you aren't ready for this, sell me your DEADLY weapons, quite frankly. This isn't being "macho", there's this big ol' thing called REALITY... that I think you need to grasp.


    Don't forget all that will happen after you kill someone, or even wound someone.

    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.

    That's your ASSumption...I will sleep like a baby knowing that I took a stand. Again, you ASSume too much.
    You think the criminal has any remorse? Again, the mother of three kids slumped face down in a plate of lasagna, or the criminal on his face? I've made MY decision, and that my friend, is a decision I am MORE THAN HAPPY, to live with compared with the other one for the rest of my life.


    Also consider that if you shoot someone who is very close to you, like the next table, or right at your table, that the bullet, even a hollow point, will pass through....and you better pray that it doesn't hit another innocent party.

    Let's use our brains with the responsibilty of this firearm and not think with our gonads.

    Agreed here, and considered it plenty....but ACTION sometimes needs to be taken. Stop thinking about all the "what if's", so much. Those "what if's" are what's going to unfortunately cause you to hesitate, and quite frankly, will get YOU killed. This isn't about bravado, or "gonads". This is about going home...
    I don't appreciate YOU acting as if someone like me standing up and giving it BACK to these idiots, is somehow "wrong".

    Sell me your deadly weapons, I'll mail you some pepper spray for Christ's sakes.....


    See above. Normally, I'm a calm poster, but I'll be damned if I'm going to act like REALITY isn't part of our lives...
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  15. #90
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    See above. Normally, I'm a calm poster, but I'll be damned if I'm going to act like REALITY isn't part of our lives...
    Thank you TheoryRelm.
    there is another that HAS thought about this. none of the comments have been off the cuff. there is a logic behind them. And discutions of scenarios help to refine those ideas.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

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