You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... - Page 7

You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

This is a discussion on You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tbrenke Thank you TheoryRelm. there is another that HAS thought about this. none of the comments have been off the cuff. there ...

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Thread: You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

  1. #91
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbrenke View Post
    Thank you TheoryRelm.
    there is another that HAS thought about this. none of the comments have been off the cuff. there is a logic behind them. And discutions of scenarios help to refine those ideas.
    Agreed Thank you.
    I think we all (from both sides) have been civil and discussed these scenarios in a logical manner.

    I just don't agree that I, nor anyone else here on planet earth that has decided to DEFEND themselves, should be labeled as trying to be a hero or macho for standing up for our very lives, and the lives of our fellow human beings.
    I certainly can agree with ANY poster that states "give them your wallet", and I can respect that is their decision, but by God if I stand up to protect that same persons LIFE, then have a little respect for my opinion and my decision to face death for doing so.

    Last edited by TheoryRealm; May 27th, 2010 at 03:02 PM.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    This has, by and large, been a good discussion and that is a good thing. There have been valid points made by those on both sides of the discussion. It is difficult suggesting courses of action to others without knowledge of their experiece, training, education and other factors. While suggestions are good, the fact remains that the decision is up to the one on the "hot seat", which they are free to make. The cost is that they must live or die with that decision. In that respect, I am prefectly alright with leaving their decision to them and I will make "my" decision for myself.

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    This has, by and large, been a good discussion and that is a good thing. There have been valid points made by those on both sides of the discussion. It is difficult suggesting courses of action to others without knowledge of their experiece, training, education and other factors. While suggestions are good, the fact remains that the decision is up to the one on the "hot seat", which they are free to make. The cost is that they must live or die with that decision. In that respect, I am prefectly alright with leaving their decision to them and I will make "my" decision for myself.
    Indeed I like where this is going. and the point of these scenarios is to hopefully bring forth things some people may not have thought of. I also like the idea of an accomplice...so lets throw that in

    2nd Twist!- Repeat this scenario except your KNOW there is an accomplice at the register...with a handgun
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  4. #94
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Indeed I like where this is going. and the point of these scenarios is to hopefully bring forth things some people may not have thought of. I also like the idea of an accomplice...so lets throw that in

    2nd Twist!- Repeat this scenario except your KNOW there is an accomplice at the register...with a handgun
    well now i know i dont want this to turn into a massacre and i'm just hoping things go very well...prepare for the worst and hope for the best...l am not intersted in an accomplice throwing random rounds into the crowd or at myself...check my kilt is straight and hope my girlfriend doesnt think any less of me for sitting this one out...

  5. #95
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    well now i know i dont want this to turn into a massacre and i'm just hoping things go very well...prepare for the worst and hope for the best...l am not intersted in an accomplice throwing random rounds into the crowd or at myself...check my kilt is straight and hope my girlfriend doesnt think any less of me for sitting this one out...
    Agreed. multiple BGs in a crowded area...I don't want to be the one to start the action...
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  6. #96
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Theory Realm responded to and wrote:
    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.

    That's your ASSumption...I will sleep like a baby knowing that I took a stand. Again, you ASSume too much.
    You think the criminal has any remorse? Again, the mother of three kids slumped face down in a plate of lasagna, or the criminal on his face? I've made MY decision, and that my friend, is a decision I am MORE THAN HAPPY, to live with compared with the other one for the rest of my life.

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    I'm glad you'd sleep like a baby. Is this if all goes well, or even if innocent people are killed, even if you did succeed in stopping the bg?

    Because, as already commented...these things rarely go as planned or cleanly. Almost no one ever stops the bad guy immediately. Chances are, sure...you may stop dozens from being killed, so what's one or 2 other patrons being killed? What if it wasnt necessary to shoot at all? Of course we never know and rely on training and the actual events in front of us.

    And most of us here have 'average' skills. We are not ex-military or LEOs. The chances rise even higher of collateral damage.

    Like I said...you may indeed save the day....get the bad guy...even as others lay injured or dead. Not sure how that will affect me, personally, at nite. I'm glad that you are comfortable accepting the consequences of your actions.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #97
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    Somewhere in here I posted, I would take the shot... I would...But, I have to have a clear/accurate shot, and I have to KNOW it... If there was any doubt I would not even expose the fact that I might be able to shoot (because I am carrying).

    My ego is large. My brain is just enough bigger than it to let me know not to make any dumb moves. Sure, if I could create the "mexican standoff" that occured in the pulp fiction scene, I'd love to do it... would it work with a hopped up crack head? Probably not except in the movies...

  8. #98
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    A very good thread indeed, logic prevails.
    Hard to know without being there as many parameters play in.

    Just wanted to mention: in most (all) real SD situation I have read about, the accomplice(s) were running away at the first shot fired.

    So for me the second scenario (more than one BG) plays roughly like the first one ... unless there are a half-dozen BG with AK covering the room.
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

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  9. #99
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Theory Realm responded to and wrote:
    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.

    That's your ASSumption...I will sleep like a baby knowing that I took a stand. Again, you ASSume too much.
    You think the criminal has any remorse? Again, the mother of three kids slumped face down in a plate of lasagna, or the criminal on his face? I've made MY decision, and that my friend, is a decision I am MORE THAN HAPPY, to live with compared with the other one for the rest of my life.


    I'm glad you'd sleep like a baby. Is this if all goes well, or even if innocent people are killed, even if you did succeed in stopping the bg?

    Because, as already commented...these things rarely go as planned or cleanly. Almost no one ever stops the bad guy immediately. Chances are, sure...you may stop dozens from being killed, so what's one or 2 other patrons being killed? What if it wasnt necessary to shoot at all? Of course we never know and rely on training and the actual events in front of us.

    And most of us here have 'average' skills. We are not ex-military or LEOs. The chances rise even higher of collateral damage.

    Like I said...you may indeed save the day....get the bad guy...even as others lay injured or dead. Not sure how that will affect me, personally, at nite. I'm glad that you are comfortable accepting the consequences of your actions.
    first bold...without perfect hindsight nobody would ever know whether it was necessary or not....and almost ever situation would have to be looked at that way unless you plan on waiting until a bad guy begins shooting others or yourself to present your firearm...incidentally...that is usually too late...

    second bold...if you are not comfortable accepting those possible cosequences you should leave your firearm home..and prepare not to use it there either...they exist in many self defense scenarios including possibilities in your own home...if you choose to defend yourself against bad things people do you must prepare to create situations that are unpredictable and potentially dangerous...you carry a dangerous tool...

    there are many situations where theory realm and i dont see eye to eye...he has a tendancy to rush in for the kill and i tend to look for other opportunity to avoid conflict and reference my firearm a a last out...in this case i am on the same page as he is...i feel no differently about this scenario than someone approaching me on the street with a weapon and demanding my money...its not about things that can be replaced...its about taking whats mine and threatening me with death or serious injury if i dont comply....give me an opportunity and i will put an end to it...

    there is nothing predictable about defending yourself..it is a crapshoot and there are risks involved...but just as i stated in the dennys walk to the cooler scenario....there are decisions i dont want these people making for me...i want the opportunity to screw it up or make it right on my own...

  10. #100
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    Respectfully, there IS a lot of bravado slipping in here and there. Anyone who has an "I WILL shoot" mentality is, IMO, just as misguided as anyone who has an "I WON'T shoot" mentality. To think that, just because you have "decided" to shoot that you have gained some sort of magical advantage or, indeed, are not making the situation worse is simplistic.

    We have brains, and sensory inputs, for a reason. Assess, then decide. As most of us (should) know, no plan survives the first contact intact - every situation is different, and just when you think you know what's going to happen, the exact opposite will occur. To think that the rigid, unyielding plan that you have decided on in your living room is going to work across the myriad (indeed, infinite) number of scenarios that you may find yourself faced with is also simplistic.

    We are not computers. We have the ability to act outside of “programming,” based on what we observe and perceive. I almost never say anything absolute about what I “will” do in any given situation; all that I can say for certain is that I WILL take the course of action that I believe will result in the best outcome – that being no innocents hurt (heck, no one hurt if it’s reasonable) above all else – based on what I know about the situation at the time. I also know that if I decide the best course of action is armed resistance, I will commit fully and aggressively to that course of action until I decide that it is no longer the “best” course of action.

    IMO, talk about how violent/aggressive/whatever you WILL be, without being there, is posturing. If it helps you feel better, that’s fine. If you actually act that way – without thinking – it is perhaps you who should hand over your weapons…
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #101
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Respectfully, there IS a lot of bravado slipping in here and there. Anyone who has an "I WILL shoot" mentality is, IMO, just as misguided as anyone who has an "I WON'T shoot" mentality. To think that, just because you have "decided" to shoot that you have gained some sort of magical advantage or, indeed, are not making the situation worse is simplistic.

    We have brains, and sensory inputs, for a reason. Assess, then decide. As most of us (should) know, no plan survives the first contact intact - every situation is different, and just when you think you know what's going to happen, the exact opposite will occur. To think that the rigid, unyielding plan that you have decided on in your living room is going to work across the myriad (indeed, infinite) number of scenarios that you may find yourself faced with is also simplistic.

    We are not computers. We have the ability to act outside of “programming,” based on what we observe and perceive. I almost never say anything absolute about what I “will” do in any given situation; all that I can say for certain is that I WILL take the course of action that I believe will result in the best outcome – that being no innocents hurt (heck, no one hurt if it’s reasonable) above all else – based on what I know about the situation at the time. I also know that if I decide the best course of action is armed resistance, I will commit fully and aggressively to that course of action until I decide that it is no longer the “best” course of action.

    IMO, talk about how violent/aggressive/whatever you WILL be, without being there, is posturing. If it helps you feel better, that’s fine. If you actually act that way – without thinking – it is perhaps you who should hand over your weapons…
    without being overly generic i believe most agree with you...thats why there ahs been a lot of explanation along with decisions...the op set up a pretty clear scenarioand as stated before even though without actually being there it would be hard to make an accurate decision many have chosen with that setup to make the shot...the safe route is always to say i wouldnt...but the scenario isnt going to see its end so you cant lose with that statement...can you?...

    or one can choose to put it your way...accuse some of bravado and make it generic enough so that you will make the right decision when the time comes and all of the various inputs are processed...thats about as easy as it gets...

    but whats missing are the actual inputs youre looking for and what decsions you will make along with the possible good and bad results if you choose to make them...

    without that there is no sense in even posting scenarios...its not to see whos right or wrong..as you and others have processed it...its to analyze what others and yourself have decided and allow a group to discuss the possible flaws or good points in others plans...

    so while its easy to tell others that they are wrong and not really participate in the scenario it contradicts the purpose altogether...

  12. #102
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    Dang, Blade - you've come a long way from when you used to flame me!

    In all seriousness, I agree with you. The discussion makes us think. If it's too annoying for me - I'll just pass.
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  13. #103
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    My intent isn't to say that any decision is wrong. My intent is to say that any decision made NOW, before the situation unfolds, is ignoring your greatest weapon - your ability to reason.

    Yes, I understand the purpose of these "what ifs," but there is almost no way (without writing a book) to describe all of the inputs that you would get were you actually in the situation. In the time it takes to write one sentence, we would be able to receive, process, and act upon millions of sensory inputs that would help us make a better decision.

    Note also that I have never and would never say that I would make the "right" decision, I said I would make the best decision that I could based on what I knew about the situation and what my desired outcome is. I could always be "wrong" in any case - I just won't commit to any course of action before knowing as much as I can about it, even if that pre-chosen course ends up to be "right."

    In this scenario, in general I am reluctant to START a gunfight in a crowded restaurant. That said, I am much more apt to try to FINISH one, quickly and surely. Would I take the shot, given what we know from the original scenario? A solid, definitive probably. :)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #104
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Pretty much all interviews i've heard with people who had to pull a gun in self defense claim they did so while thinking so quickly they don't even remember the draw/ trigger pull...

    Whether you decide to do something or not, decide quickly...because as many posters say...hesitation is a killer
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  15. #105
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    i think everyone here is reluctant to start a gunfight in a crowded restaraunt and many have expressed that sentiment even though they have chosen to shoot...

    what we are experiencing in many cases isnt necessarily bravado....its a sickening feeling that we are sick and tired of people taking advantage of a weakness we have to fighting for what is ours and a reaction that says ive had enough and it is gonna end...

    similarly we are experiencing a decline in violent crime in areas where ccw permit numbers are rising....a message is being sent and some are receiving it...others need it reinforced...people want to take back their freedom...

    thats not bravado and it requires risk to accomplish...and i would venture to guess that in this very scenario there are many who said shoot that would not because they see something differently while assessing the risk in it...and there are those who might have chosen not to shoot who may because they see an opportunity they didnt think of...we are exploring that here where it is safe....in an effort to make the right decision if it ever does materialize...

    whec...dont count me out...i havent changed...the situation probably did...i could be flaming you tomorrow.......and i expect the same from you...

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