You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

This is a discussion on You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; what we are experiencing in many cases isnt necessarily bravado....its a sickening feeling that we are sick and tired of people taking advantage of a ...

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  1. #106
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    what we are experiencing in many cases isnt necessarily bravado....its a sickening feeling that we are sick and tired of people taking advantage of a weakness we have to fighting for what is ours and a reaction that says ive had enough and it is gonna end...
    Ok, I get it, but I'm not willing to take my moral stand at the risk of killing a bunch of diners out for a meal...
    similarly we are experiencing a decline in violent crime in areas where ccw permit numbers are rising....a message is being sent and some are receiving it...others need it reinforced...people want to take back their freedom...
    No, we really aren't. As was just posted recently, crime figures have basically no correlation to private ownership of firearms or CC/OC laws - they are statistically unrelated.
    thats not bravado and it requires risk to accomplish...
    Risk to YOU, fine. Risk to my loved ones (who might be in that restaurant, too), no thanks. Take your "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore" attitude somewhere safer for ME, thanks...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    The scenario is entirely contrived... in all likelihood the perfect shot to his back I described will not be so...
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  4. #108
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Inclination is often overridden by actual decisions as events in situations unfold.

  5. #109
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    first bold...without perfect hindsight nobody would ever know whether it was necessary or not....and almost ever situation would have to be looked at that way unless you plan on waiting until a bad guy begins shooting others or yourself to present your firearm...incidentally...that is usually too late...

    Agreed. Which is why I asked for clarification from TR. He just says he'll sleep like a baby...yet perhaps never knowing if he made the right decision. I pointed out that even if successful killing bad guy...the odds of doing that without collateral damage are low....so there might also be 'collateral' emotions after that 'successful' shooting. I asked if he considered that.

    second bold...if you are not comfortable accepting those possible cosequences you should leave your firearm home..and prepare not to use it there either...they exist in many self defense scenarios including possibilities in your own home...if you choose to defend yourself against bad things people do you must prepare to create situations that are unpredictable and potentially dangerous...you carry a dangerous tool...


    I never said I'm not comfortable accepting consequences...I recognize that many decisions I may make re: using *or not using* my gun may indeed be terrible. And that I'd have to live with them...and have chosen to rely on training, judgement, etc to enable me to make the best decisions I can. RIght or wrong, in many cases I know it would affect me for the rest of my life. I accept it.

    there are many situations where theory realm and i dont see eye to eye...he has a tendancy to rush in for the kill and i tend to look for other opportunity to avoid conflict and reference my firearm a a last out...in this case i am on the same page as he is...i feel no differently about this scenario than someone approaching me on the street with a weapon and demanding my money...its not about things that can be replaced...its about taking whats mine and threatening me with death or serious injury if i dont comply....give me an opportunity and i will put an end to it...

    In the thread I did describe circumstances where I'd shoot and why. And how. OTOH, my decisions probably wont be based on 'what's mine,' but more on...c'an I shoot successfully and not have bystanders involved? Would I make things worse or better? '

    there is nothing predictable about defending yourself..it is a crapshoot and there are risks involved...but just as i stated in the dennys walk to the cooler scenario....there are decisions i dont want these people making for me...i want the opportunity to screw it up or make it right on my own...
    Agreed.these scenarios ARE all about bringing up contingencies and details for people to consider that they may not have. I focus alot on the following as when I read these things, I really question whether people have considered these enough:

    1) Tueller drill realities

    2) the fact that in many cases, even a perfectly placed double-tap doesnt stop a bad guy...and may continue to harm you or others even while you are still shooting.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #110
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Agreed.these scenarios ARE all about bringing up contingencies and details for people to consider that they may not have. I focus alot on the following as when I read these things, I really question whether people have considered these enough:

    1) Tueller drill realities

    2) the fact that in many cases, even a perfectly placed double-tap doesnt stop a bad guy...and may continue to harm you or others even while you are still shooting.
    and if there are more rounds on hand then shame on you for not using them until the threat is stopped...double tap is a sweet term but is limited to 2 shots and reassess...if the threat is standing there is no assessment...it has not stopped...

    tueller drill realities are that we need to get off line and out of the holster with multiple shots before the bad guy gets to us...there is no rule that says you have to stand in one spot and wait for the knife to contact you....

    i get where youre going...and i get where theory realm is at...and this is a great discussion....

  7. #111
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Risk to YOU, fine. Risk to my loved ones (who might be in that restaurant, too), no thanks. Take your "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore" attitude somewhere safer for ME, thanks...
    so you wont be inviting the guy whos pointing the gun at your wife and kids and asking them for their stuff to dinner either?...

  8. #112
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    and if there are more rounds on hand then shame on you for not using them until the threat is stopped...double tap is a sweet term but is limited to 2 shots and reassess...if the threat is standing there is no assessment...it has not stopped...

    tueller drill realities are that we need to get off line and out of the holster with multiple shots before the bad guy gets to us...there is no rule that says you have to stand in one spot and wait for the knife to contact you....
    i get where youre going...and i get where theory realm is at...and this is a great discussion....

    Hi Blade...I understand that about the double taps not working...that's why I wrote...while you are still shooting.

    And totally agree with the bold....that's definitely part of examining all the repercussions that go along with bg proximity.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #113
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Hi Blade...I understand that about the double taps not working...that's why I wrote...while you keep shooting.

    And totally agree with the bold....that's definitely part of examining all the repercussions that go along with bg proximity.
    i'll refer you and others to your first 2 sig lines....

  10. #114
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i'll refer you and others to your first 2 sig lines....

    I'm really missing the connection. And the 2nd one is about laws and personal responsibility.

    As a rule in my life, I ACT....I react very quickly, for better or worse. In 49 yrs, it's worked out ok (without a gun). Just because I *might* not use a gun doesnt mean I'd do nothing.

    One thing I have learned in all my reading online and in related books, once you pull a gun out...ALL the dynamics change...all of them. Bystanders and fellow innocent parties react...you dont know how. THey can call attention to you before you ever get a shot off. You dont know who will panic and suddenly get in front of the bg...I mean there's a million of them. You may have unexpected consequences of a ricochet, cops may come and not realize you're the good guy.

    In every situation, there are a million small things to try to guage & judge. In milliseconds.

    To me, a gun is not my first go-to response...it's most likely coming into play if there's no other choice. In the cases where it comes down to *there's no time to think*, like "bg approaches, points gun at me, and I must shoot instantly....not gonna happen." I dont have the skill or carry set up.

    OTOH, I've been really clear about using my weapon if I am home alone and an intruder enters uninvited. All I have to consider is me and him/them. (No close neighbors)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #115
    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    fwiw-
    just another reason i have my wallet on my weak side, it keeps my strong side hand free to do monkey business while i fetch my wallet from the weak side with my weak hand. nice to have your weapon in your strong hand if the SHTF...

    I won't stop racing when I get old, I will get old when I stop racing

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  12. #116
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Theory Realm responded to and wrote:
    There are going to be be lawsuits, from the BG or his family, probably lawsuits from other patrons of the restaurant, and psychological problems for you as the shooter.

    That's your ASSumption...I will sleep like a baby knowing that I took a stand. Again, you ASSume too much.
    You think the criminal has any remorse? Again, the mother of three kids slumped face down in a plate of lasagna, or the criminal on his face? I've made MY decision, and that my friend, is a decision I am MORE THAN HAPPY, to live with compared with the other one for the rest of my life.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________

    I'm glad you'd sleep like a baby. Is this if all goes well, or even if innocent people are killed, even if you did succeed in stopping the bg?


    You sit in your chair while I DO something then, you're OVERANALYZING this. The BG, is the initiator of violence, in this scenario, remember?


    Because, as already commented...these things rarely go as planned or cleanly. Almost no one ever stops the bad guy immediately. Chances are, sure...you may stop dozens from being killed, so what's one or 2 other patrons being killed? What if it wasnt necessary to shoot at all? Of course we never know and rely on training and the actual events in front of us.

    Exactly, things rarely go as planned, (You've certainly, tried over and over again to show us all that "oops, be careful, ooops, watch that shot, ooops, he might still fire, ooops, he could run for awhile).
    Yes, and???? We all know the consequences of firing a deadly weapon. Fortunately, most of us here understand REALITY, and that REALITY points us to planet Earth being a very dangerous place, where a criminal would do anything, while you worry about hesitating so much is seems that it's on the point of being a problem for you to even carry it seems...
    As stated by 95 percent of the people here, we would rather take action, than to sit there, and let this idiot dictate what happens. If this idiot is pulling a gun out, and ADMITTING he will shoot, and the scenario has been playing out like we have been discussing, then YES!!!!!! IT IS TIME TO SHOOT, pal! Do you not get this? Really?


    And most of us here have 'average' skills. We are not ex-military or LEOs. The chances rise even higher of collateral damage.

    And, so you sit there....in that chair, letting your fear and/or mind wonder about collateral damage, and/or if this guy is going to shoot you or not, or if he "mighta, coulda, woulda, shoulda maybe"......
    Your "skills", have gotten you this far, shooting at the range et cetera. WHAT....did you expect when you started down this road
    9MMare? WHAT, did you really expect when you did the shooting sessions, took the range days (I assume), got your CCW (assuming again)? Are you waiting, really, on some "magic" day that you will suddenly be ready? If you're not ready now, RIGHT NOW, to kill anyone you meet if you have to because THEY are WILLING to take your life, then you either need to quickly figure out why you're actually carrying and possess a DEADLY weapon, or put it away for good. You know, I have been here for awhile, and quite frankly, I find you give excuses on threads for NOT taking action because of this, or that, or some other "legal" reason. You DO have more than "average skills" brother, you just need to realize it, and I feel like I'm being mean saying all this to you. I honestly mean no harm, but this discussion is about your LIFE, the very being you are, and you have to to somehow, someway, come to terms with this.


    Like I said...you may indeed save the day....get the bad guy...even as others lay injured or dead. Not sure how that will affect me, personally, at nite. I'm glad that you are comfortable accepting the consequences of your actions.

    I'm glad I'm comfortable walking out the door alive because I'm not going to hesitate STOPPING someone from trying to KILL me.

    This isn't....really....that difficult... to comprehend, 9MMare....
    It really is, YOU...or HIM.
    Constructive discussions here, really!
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  13. #117
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Respectfully, there IS a lot of bravado slipping in here and there. Anyone who has an "I WILL shoot" mentality is, IMO, just as misguided as anyone who has an "I WON'T shoot" mentality. To think that, just because you have "decided" to shoot that you have gained some sort of magical advantage or, indeed, are not making the situation worse is simplistic.

    We have brains, and sensory inputs, for a reason. Assess, then decide. As most of us (should) know, no plan survives the first contact intact - every situation is different, and just when you think you know what's going to happen, the exact opposite will occur. To think that the rigid, unyielding plan that you have decided on in your living room is going to work across the myriad (indeed, infinite) number of scenarios that you may find yourself faced with is also simplistic.

    We are not computers. We have the ability to act outside of “programming,” based on what we observe and perceive. I almost never say anything absolute about what I “will” do in any given situation; all that I can say for certain is that I WILL take the course of action that I believe will result in the best outcome – that being no innocents hurt (heck, no one hurt if it’s reasonable) above all else – based on what I know about the situation at the time. I also know that if I decide the best course of action is armed resistance, I will commit fully and aggressively to that course of action until I decide that it is no longer the “best” course of action.

    IMO, talk about how violent/aggressive/whatever you WILL be, without being there, is posturing. If it helps you feel better, that’s fine. If you actually act that way – without thinking – it is perhaps you who should hand over your weapons…


    Good response OPFOR!
    The situation dicates the "action". I hope "my" point is coming across as I will not initiate the action if it's not deemed the right timing, but if violence is initiated by others, then overwhelming force on THEM is required.

    IMHO, it's more important to be "ready" and not "have to", than to "have to" and...not be "ready". There's more danger and hesitation in the latter.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  14. #118
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    I hand over the wallet and try to be a good witness, unless one of three things happens.

    1- He starts shooting.
    2- He is acting so hopped up on drugs or is so irrational that I don't believe giving up the money may be enough.
    3- He starts herding people into the back. Nothing good comes of that.

    Otherwise, the money I might lose in the wallet is nothing compared to the cost of retaining counsel, much less the civil and legal jeopardy. Like some have said, even if you hit 3/3 times and he drops, what if his gun fires in the meantime and takes out a little girl in the next booth? Gunfire in a crowded place may not end well, and until I don't feel I have another choice, I'm playing it cool. Like Fonzie.

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    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  15. #119
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Constructive discussions here, really!
    Or you've dropped over the edge into 'judgemental.' I'll just leave all that there and let others 'judge' it.

    I will say however, that I used to be a park ranger in NYC..unarmed, mostly on foot, in situations where guns could have been appropriately and legally used...but managed not to have to (which was lucky since I didnt have one.)

    I've had the adreneline dumps and the decisions on if I should help others or take cover (for instance.) As I said earlier...I ACT...I have the ability to make very fast decisions. I always act rather than 'drop out.'...it's just never been necessary to use a gun before and I wont be looking for it to be my primary weapon going forward. If *I feel* that using it is the best approach, I'll do that.

    Personally, I dont care how good a shot you are, I prefer most carriers stay out of most conflicts...just from reading here, I often also question other people's judgement. That is why I try to provide an alternate point of view.

    btw, I shoot weekly at the range....in the IDPA club...strictly to work on skills moving, taking cover, reloading, stress (yes, I find timing and people watching and remembering a course provides some degree of stress), etc. Not to compete.

    There you go, I manage to get out of my chair once a week. The rest of the time apparently I sit here and judge everyone else...
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  16. #120
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    I hope "my" point is coming across as I will not initiate the action if it's not deemed the right timing, but if violence is initiated by others, then overwhelming force on THEM is required.

    IMHO, it's more important to be "ready" and not "have to", than to "have to" and...not be "ready". There's more danger and hesitation in the latter.

    In the OP, violence had not been initiated:"He proceeds to move from table to table demanding pearl necklaces, watches, wallets, anything he can get quickly. he is getting close to your table, by this time you've already quietly draw your firearm under the table and it now rests on your lap in your strong hand. You don't know if he is stable or if he will shoot up the place before leaving, but for not it seems like compliance is working with other tables."

    And not a single person here said that they wouldnt be ready. There's a big difference between being ready and hesitating when action is necessary.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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