You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment...

This is a discussion on You're enjoying dinner in a classy establishment... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare Or you've dropped over the edge into 'judgemental.' I'll just leave all that there and let others 'judge' it. I will ...

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  1. #121
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Or you've dropped over the edge into 'judgemental.' I'll just leave all that there and let others 'judge' it.

    I will say however, that I used to be a park ranger in NYC..unarmed, mostly on foot, in situations where guns could have been appropriately and legally used...but managed not to have to (which was lucky since I didnt have one.)

    I've had the adreneline dumps and the decisions on if I should help others or take cover (for instance.) As I said earlier...I ACT...I have the ability to make very fast decisions. I always act rather than 'drop out.'...it's just never been necessary to use a gun before and I wont be looking for it to be my primary weapon going forward. If *I feel* that using it is the best approach, I'll do that.

    Personally, I dont care how good a shot you are, I prefer most carriers stay out of most conflicts...just from reading here, I often also question other people's judgement. That is why I try to provide an alternate point of view.

    btw, I shoot weekly at the range....in the IDPA club...strictly to work on skills moving, taking cover, reloading, stress (yes, I find timing and people watching and remembering a course provides some degree of stress), etc. Not to compete.

    There you go, I manage to get out of my chair once a week. The rest of the time apparently I sit here and judge everyone else...
    Your alternate point of view has been duly noted. It just seems like it's the ONLY view many times, was my point.

    You're taking this personally....
    I could also claim you're "judging" me as to be trigger happy, when in fact, I've stated I would be a witness in one situation, or watch him simply run out in another.

    I know you will "use" it if you "have" to.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

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  3. #122
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    In the OP, violence had not been initiated:"He proceeds to move from table to table demanding pearl necklaces, watches, wallets, anything he can get quickly. he is getting close to your table, by this time you've already quietly draw your firearm under the table and it now rests on your lap in your strong hand. You don't know if he is stable or if he will shoot up the place before leaving, but for not it seems like compliance is working with other tables."


    Uh, merely "forget" to add part of the OP's scenario sentences, and what changes it ALL for those in REALITY? Why didn't you add this VERY valid part of the OP's statement below in there, if you really wanted to discuss this?????

    ------->"1)BG with a gun comes in....2) he orders everyone to freeze and remain seated and threatens to shoot anyone who gets up."

    Two instances I would hope your mind comes to grips with!
    THIS is called escalation to ME. THIS is called a THREAT of DEATH to me. THIS is where I stop taking your advice, and face the world of reality. Furthermore, he has "initiated" enough violence for anyone who understands the human mind, right there.


    And not a single person here said that they wouldnt be ready. There's a big difference between being ready and hesitating when action is necessary.


    Yep, there IS a big difference.....

    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  4. #123
    Member Array Back 40's Avatar
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    Does everyone feel better now? I am exausted after reading all of this. You posters must be worn out.

  5. #124
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Since when is a threat "violence"? Any person who brings out a gun during a robbery is threatening violence, period. It's not 'violence' until he uses it or does something else physical.

    Am I saying that we must wait until he does shoot? No.

    And btw, you kept talking about hesitation and not having time to make decisions. In this scenario, you have quite a bit of time...as he goes from table to table until he is in the position described in the OP. Do you really think that whatever our decision to shoot or not, we're not analyzing all the things I've mentioned during that time? (or at least I hope people are).

    Whether I take it personally or not isnt important. I dont care. If I think my perspective is constructive, I will express it. Or certainly learn from constructive criticism myself. I'm not asking people to agree, just consider.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #125
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Your alternate point of view has been duly noted. It just seems like it's the ONLY view many times, was my point.

    :
    I think this is true somewhat, partly because all the scenarios are very similar...there's usually just 2, with variations.

    Very few address situations that women alone would be confronted with....and these are the ones *I* think of the most.

    I think I'm usually on the same page as most other posters on home invasion scenarios...that live alone.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #126
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Since when is a threat "violence"? Any person who brings out a gun during a robbery is threatening violence, period. It's not 'violence' until he uses it or does something else physical.


    Well, you already indicated, and you just did again, that you will WAIT until he does something physical. Therein, lies the difference between us, that's all.

    Am I saying that we must wait until he does shoot? No.

    Then you're playing with milliseconds pal, good luck with that....But I understand what you mean brother.

    And btw, you kept talking about hesitation and not having time to make decisions. In this scenario, you have quite a bit of time...as he goes from table to table until he is in the position described in the OP.


    Uh......IF you would have read some of my FIRST posts, you would have remembered that is EXACTLY what I described. WAITING for the opportunity. You decided to let him walk in with a gun, and threaten everyone with death. You then decided, that you're gonna play with milliseconds. You then, I still assumed, decided HE was going to be the initiator of an escalation point. Your choice, carry on....
    Sometimes, I don't LIKE letting others dictate the "escalation" point especially when I have already witnessed (in this scenario) that he has escalated it veeeeeeery much, already.



    Do you really think that whatever our decision to shoot or not, we're not analyzing all the things I've mentioned during that time? (or at least I hope people are).

    Yes...agreed

    Whether I take it personally or not isnt important. I dont care. If I think my perspective is constructive, I will express it. Or certainly learn from constructive criticism myself. I'm not asking people to agree, just consider.

    It's simply all I'm asking from you, and others, as well....

    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  8. #127
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Um....I'm a woman..."Mare?"

    And no, I dont think he has to commit violence before I shoot. Alot hinges on 'imminent' and there are definitely circumstances where I would defend myself without allowing them to shoot first, such as in my home.


    Altho I guess we still disagree on if and when to draw in this scenario, but I can respect that as well.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #128
    Member Array Steve J's Avatar
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    I have enjoyed reading all the responses to this sinarrio, many people are concerned with lawsuits from the bg or his family, in Michigan like many other states there is in effect something called the " Castle Doctrine" meaning you havce the right to defend your self, family, property ect.. without the fear of reprocussions. Recently here in Det a man got robbed and carjacked, the bg crashed the stolen car with the victim in persuit, shots were exchanged, a woman was accedently killed (about a block away sitting on her couch) by the victim of the crime and the bad guy is being charged with her murder. I haven't heard if the vic of the robbery is to be charged with anything

  10. #129
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Um....I'm a woman..."Mare?"

    And no, I dont think he has to commit violence before I shoot. Alot hinges on 'imminent' and there are definitely circumstances where I would defend myself without allowing them to shoot first, such as in my home.


    Altho I guess we still disagree on if and when to draw in this scenario, but I can respect that as well.


    Ahh, then I certainly apologize if I was a bit "crude" in my responses.


    I DO respect your stances 9MMare, I honestly do.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  11. #130
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Ahh, then I certainly apologize if I was a bit "crude" in my responses.


    I DO respect your stances 9MMare, I honestly do.
    You have my respect as well. No harm, no foul.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #131
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Um....I'm a woman..."Mare?"
    funny...i thought everyone was aware...

  13. #132
    Member Array Bandolero's Avatar
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    This could never happen. I can't afford to eat in such a restaurant.

  14. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve J View Post
    ...in Michigan like many other states there is in effect something called the " Castle Doctrine" meaning you havce the right to defend your self, family, property ect.. without the fear of reprocussions...
    Be careful, Steve, Michigan's Castle Doctrine is not carte blanche to shoot anyone, anywhere...

    Specifically, Castle Doctrine applies when you are in your "castle," that is YOUR home, business, or car. It would PROBABLY apply in this scenario (assuming that you were, in fact, found to have used deadly force in lawful self defense), but it isn't a "get out of jail free" card, especially when you are outside of your "castle."

    Check this link:Michigan's Castle Doctrine Law and You
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #134
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    and/or if this guy is going to shoot you or not, or if he "mighta, coulda, woulda, shoulda
    So, your point is that you will, always, take it from a mighta coulda woulda been a shooting event to a DEFINITE shooting event, is that correct? And you believe that this is always the safest and best course of action - introducing gunfire into a crowded, enclosed environment where there was none before? I just want to be clear on this...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  16. #135
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, your point is that you will, always, take it from a mighta coulda woulda been a shooting event to a DEFINITE shooting event, is that correct? And you believe that this is always the safest and best course of action - introducing gunfire into a crowded, enclosed environment where there was none before? I just want to be clear on this...
    tying an awful lot to that question....

    i'll take a stab at it....when a victim feels it is safe to do so in their best judgement they are legally entitled to defend themselves in a situation where deadly force has been threatened and/or introduced...

    now you turn that into whatever you want...

    its funny...you post on here that in a situation where the shot looks feesible and clean and some guy is tearing you up because you may be endangering his family or others taking the shot...

    you post that you would not intervene in a situation and a guy jumps in and says you would think differently if it were your family being threatened or assaulted and you would wish someone would intervene if they had the chance...a crazed shooter with an assault rifle is taking people down in a walmart and there are guys who couldnt leave because they couldnt be responsible for the deaths of others they could save and are willing to go against the shooter with a handgun as opposed to get to safety...and the "if your family were in there it would be different" statement comes up...

    i honestly believe everyone who is thinking of taking the shot in this scenario is evauating the risk of doing so and may or may not change their mind in the actual scenario...in the event the "thief" decides to start shooting it may be too late...then where are the families?...it happens both ways...and without the advantage of havign a crystal ball there is no way to find out what is/was/might/might not happen and whether there is a god at all...

    in the event you had the opportunity to take the shot and passed...then the bad guy started shooting and your family was the first to go down what would hindsight tell you?...that youre thankful that the only person to blame for this is the bad guy?...thats comforting....

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