Trying to fight while carrying. - Page 4

Trying to fight while carrying.

This is a discussion on Trying to fight while carrying. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ctsketch Guantes you certainly sound like you earned you LE retirement! Thank You, Sir....

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Guantes you certainly sound like you earned you LE retirement!
    Thank You, Sir.


  2. #47
    Member Array eggs's Avatar
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    In the drills I noticed most of the time they stood still., sometimes people tend to freeze, But an important part of defending yourself is to move of the line of attack. my .02

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm a NOOBIE... What the heck is a fluid shock wave?

  4. #49
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Thanks, BikerRN.

    Did you catch my new avatar? Its a little small to see good.
    Sadly I saw the Avatar, but I'm unable to read it. Is there some way to blow it up a little bit?

    Biker

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I'll try. Its a 65' Watts National Guard traffic control sign.
    Click the thumbnail to enlarge
    Attached Images

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    In the drills I noticed most of the time they stood still., sometimes people tend to freeze, But an important part of defending yourself is to move of the line of attack. my .02
    This is one of the reason instructors and experienced people suggest that you move and then draw. Unless you are use to moving and drawing simultaneously, if you draw first, there is a tendency to not move.

  7. #52
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I'll try. Its a 65' Watts National Guard traffic control sign.
    Click the thumbnail to enlarge


    Very much to the point.

    I could tell that it was a road, and the car in the picture was definately an older model, but beyond that I couldn't make out enough to be sure what I was seeing. Thank you for enlarging it.

    Biker

  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array Dragman's Avatar
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    This is when it is great to be a big guy in one way and horrible in the other.
    First no one really ever messes with me or anything and if someone is being out of line and I speak up they almost never say anything back, so If I get into a brawl it would be a safe bet that I wanted to be in it for some reason "Try and say clear now a days to old for that crap"

    second in the off chance I have to defend myself I think its crap that being big is MY FAULT. I got in a fight years back I was 17 and the other kid was 19 obviously no one was packing. He instagated the entire fight because of a girl he liked and he also threw the first punch. I hit him once and fight over! Problem was it took me an hour to get out of the cop car cuz I had an easy 50lbs on the kid! in the end it sorted out ok, but I will never forget that the law isn't always equal.

    Just avoid dumb people and conflict and stay home! thats what I do.

  9. #54
    Member Array AllAbtSlfDef's Avatar
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    Oakchas- fluid shock wave is a wave of striking and really driving the energy. Used a lot in baton strikes and knee strikes or if you are familiar with a thai round kick. Very effective.
    "Put on the whole armor of God..."

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Say if the guy has the gun on you at close range. You feel that he is gonna kill you. You have your gun on the strong side hip holster. Why waste time for a gun disarm if you have a gun and you are about to be killed? And, why waste time trying to outdraw him? You can grab the attacker's gun by the muzzle and sweep it to the other side (continue to hold on to the gun). At the same time, immediately draw your sidearm and shoot him before he decides to pull the gun back from your hand. The move is also similar to the movie "Collateral" when Vincent (Tom Cruise) faced both attackers and took both of them out. Like the move I mentioned, he swept the attacker's gun to the side except be parried it as he fired, which I feel is more riskier move. As far as the move I mentioned goes, the downside to it is there may be innocents nearby and grabbing it and sweeping in the side is risky for them. So maybe you might have to alter it a little, if that's the case, by grabbing the attacker's gun by the frame and sweeping it upward (hold it there and don't let go) while you draw from chest level at the same time and fire just like the one I mentioned. I learned this move from a seminar by Hock Hocheim, a world renowned CQC instructor, if anyone ever heard of him.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAbtSlfDef View Post
    Oakchas- fluid shock wave is a wave of striking and really driving the energy. Used a lot in baton strikes and knee strikes or if you are familiar with a thai round kick. Very effective.
    Thanks... Though I found the Self Def definition on the web... I really thought it might be forum slang for the resultant loss of bodily fluids of various primary colors (and even some earth tones) known to occur when a BG has just bought a bullet....


    which I understand to be equally or more effective...

  12. #57
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Storm View Post
    Say if the guy has the gun on you at close range. You feel that he is gonna kill you. You have your gun on the strong side hip holster. Why waste time for a gun disarm if you have a gun and you are about to be killed? And, why waste time trying to outdraw him? You can grab the attacker's gun by the muzzle and sweep it to the other side (continue to hold on to the gun). At the same time, immediately draw your sidearm and shoot him before he decides to pull the gun back from your hand. The move is also similar to the movie "Collateral" when Vincent (Tom Cruise) faced both attackers and took both of them out. Like the move I mentioned, he swept the attacker's gun to the side except be parried it as he fired, which I feel is more riskier move. As far as the move I mentioned goes, the downside to it is there may be innocents nearby and grabbing it and sweeping in the side is risky for them. So maybe you might have to alter it a little, if that's the case, by grabbing the attacker's gun by the frame and sweeping it upward (hold it there and don't let go) while you draw from chest level at the same time and fire just like the one I mentioned. I learned this move from a seminar by Hock Hocheim, a world renowned CQC instructor, if anyone ever heard of him.
    Thanks for responding. I like what you wrote. However, this scenario was about a person coming at you with their fists.

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Along the lines of what what Jason Storm said, Krav Maga has helped me immensely and I've spent over 10 years in martial arts...
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I noticed several posts addressing possible actions when you are confronted at close range by an assailant pointing a gun at you. I thought I would post a technique that I developed for my own use. It has been posted on several other forums.

    Drawing Against The Drop

    DATD, which I developed a long time ago for my own use is presented below, for your persual .

    This is a method of drawing and firing against an aggressor who is threatening you with a firearm that is pointed at you , in the 0-3' range and you decide the problem cannot be resolved by any other means. Drawing Against The Drop is not suited to those new to the realm of self defense or firearms, but with an understanding of the principles and considerable practice it can be brought into one's arsenal. It is a high level, high risk manouver for situations where a lethal outcome is likely and the only question is who will prevail. It is based on suprise, speed and angles. This manouver is not meant to replace combatives or disarms but as an alternative to them.

    Many would say that in a close range situation such as we are talking about that combatives or disarms are the answer, not going for your gun. In some cases either of those might be the best option, in others I do not believe it would be. As we age we begin to lose the attributes of self defense. Endurance is probably the first to suffer, followed by strength. It has been my experience that speed, which is essential to Draw Against The Drop, can be maintained longer and easier than the other two. Now let me give you some examples, where I think Drawing Against The Drop would be your best option.

    Facing an opponent of say , six foot or larger, around 200 to 240 lbs who is 20 to 30 years old, when you are a male five foot eight, 160 lbs soaking wet and 50+, 60+, etc, in age, or a 5'2" 110 pound female, unless you have a lifetime of martial training and experience, you have a big problem. This problem is only magnified if you have any physical limitation or injury or your opponent recently got out of prison, where he was pumping iron and training for two or three years. I do not believe combatives or disarms would be your best option.

    If you are facing an armed aggressor who has one or two unarmed accomplices (not that uncommon), combatives can be a big problem. An soon as you go to a disarm or combatives with the armed aggressor, you can bet the other two will be on you and trying to disable you and help the partner maintain control of his weapon. The rapid elimination of the armed aggressor in an eruption of gunfire may not solve all your problems, although it just may. At the very least, it has eliminated what appeared to be the greatest threat, while leaving you with some capability to deal with the other two, if they stick around. Here again I don't think combatives or disarms would be your best choice.

    These are the types of situations where I think DATD outshines other options.

    This is not "THE" method for drawing against a gun weilding aggressor, it is "A" method. I can tell you from experience that the principles of this method, if executed properly, do work. It uses simple, easy to learn techniques.
    I have not seen this exact method or system described by anyone else so I don't know if anyone else has developed and promotes or teaches the exact same thing. I developed this method for my own use in these types of situations.

    Drawing Against The Drop involves five specific and unique elements

    1. There is the decision that you will execute a draw against the drop
    The actual decision making process I'll leave up to you

    2. There is a verbalization to act as a distraction to the aggressor and/or a que to make your move

    3. There is a parry to get the aggressors weapon off line

    4. There is a blading of your body to help get it off line from the aggressor's gun in case your parry is not completely
    successful

    5. There is the quick and efficient access of your weapon and discharge of rounds
    Anything that interferes with this works against you, be it clothing, holster, type of draw, weapon platform or
    anything else

    In detail, they are as follows:

    The decision process, as I said, I will leave to your own means

    Once you have made the decision you need a distraction and a que.
    I use a pleading statement like, "Please don't kill me". One word in that sentence is my que. When I hit that word I go.
    There are several reasons for this.
    One, it gives me a specific go signal for nearly any situation.
    Two, the pleading re-enforces the aggressor's feeling of control.
    Three, Talking is a distraction and most people instinctively listen for the completion of a thought or sentence, whether
    intentionally or not, so a good time to attack is while they are focused on the completion of the thought.

    The following three elements, the parry, the blading and the draw must begin simultaneously, during the verbalization.
    If the blading follows the parry it might be too late
    If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late
    They must all occur or at least begin simultaneously

    In the parry, I prefer a move from my left to right and down with my off hand. There are several reasons for this.

    One, if the aggressor is right handed, which is most likely, it puts me to the outside, away from the aggressors off hand.

    Second, I prefer to blade my off side forward so my left to right parry is moving the aggressor's gun in the opposite direction of which my body is moving.

    Third, most armed ccw people, including me, are right handed. This means that they usually keep their S-O (Significant Other) on their left or off side so as to not interfere with their weapons access. Therefore, I do not want to get in the habit of parrying the aggressor's weapon in the direction my S-O would be.

    Should the aggressor be left handed the same actions will work quite well and have the same results, although you will be moving towards the inside and the aggressor's off hand. In addition, more effort must be made to control the aggressor's gun hand, as it is not wedged between the two of you. One thing to note is that the shoulder is not dropped during the parry. The reason for this is that the raised shoulder provides some protection for the face and head against the off hand of a left handed aggressor. The head is also lowered slightly, which protects it against a head butt I prefer using the palm as in addition to the parry it provides the possibility of a controlling grab. The preferred striking point with the parry is the juncture of the back of the hand and the forearm ( the wrist) of the aggressor. Striking higher on the arm may allow the wrist of the aggressor to bend back against the parry while a shot is fired. Striking lower, on the weapon, may work, but you may slip off the aggressor's weapon or you may injure your hand.

    In the blading , I believe that blading the off side forward has the most advantages.
    The blading does three things.

    One, it helps get your body off his line of fire if your parry is not completely successful.

    Two, it compliments the left to right parry and it makes your gun more difficult to attack in place or during the draw in its rearward position.

    Three, it helps protect you from a knee or kick to the groin by the aggressor.

    Blading the off side forward can be aided by a step forward with the off foot which is the method I prefer. In addition to aiding the blading the forward step contributes to forward pressure on the aggressor and puts you in a forward stance which will aid in your stability should the aggressor charge.

    The drawing of the weapon is obviously an important part of the technique

    I realize that climate, NPE's (Non Permissive Environments) and clothing requirements and preferences will affect, not only garment selection but holster type and location. Regardless of those constraints, any combination that does not allow you to draw your weapon with one hand in an expeditious manner will impair your ability to Draw Against The Drop or draw in any other combative situation. If the imparment is severe, you should forget the idea of Drawing Against The Drop and concentrate on other alternatives or change your carry method.

    The draw used is similar to a draw to a high retention position, sometimes called a contact shooting position. The difference is that the gun remains more or less in its original retention position as the torso blades. What results is that due to the bladed torso the butt of the gun ends up near the sternum instead of the ribs. This brings the lower frame of the gun in contact with the parry arm in the area of the inner elbow. This does several important things.

    One, it prevents shooting oneself in the arm.

    Two, it makes it more difficult for the aggressor to attack your gun with his off hand.

    Three, indexing the weapon on your arm will help prevent your pushing an autoloader weapon out of battery into the aggressor thereby causing a failure to fire.

    Four, it allows low or high shots without concern over your arm positon.

    Once the weapon is indexed on your arm, shots should be fired as fast as you can fire them until the threat is eliminated. This indexing prior to firing is extremely important to prevent shooting yourself in the off arm. The entire action, including three shots should take about one and a half seconds. The number of shots to com or a zipper, which is easy to do from the arm indexed poisiton is up to you. Should the aggressor go down, I would either follow him down continuing to control his weapon or I would create movement to make a more difficult target, until I was sure he was out of action.
    For a left hander, it is a mirror image with the only difference being that you will be moving to the inside on a right hander and to the outside on a lefty.

    Should you decide that you would like to incorporate this technique into your self defense arsenal, There are a number of things to keep in mind. This entire parry/blading/draw-fire sequence is very time and position critical and requires significant practice to ingrain the timing, continuity and speed. I recommend solo practice with a blue gun or your carry weapon and snap caps to begin with. This will do several things. It will train your body to do four things at once, talking, parrying, blading and drawing and firing. It is important that you verbalize during your practice so it will become an intergral part of your technique. The practice will also get you to build up speed with your weapon and learn to overcome what seems to be a natural tendency to fire one round on a draw. You want to fire at least three shots as fast as you can in practice. During this practice, make sure that the gun is indexed on your arm befor firing the first shot. From there work against a training partner with a blue gun. Then graduate to Airsoft FoF with a training partner. The final step is solo live fire practice. It should start at a slow pace and progress as abilities allow. When proficient, the entire process including three shots should take around one and a half seconds.


    Guantes

  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    guantes...the tactic is taught by others as "tactical drama"...the verbal giving in and begging for mercy reiforces the control of the aggressor and leaves them feeling in control and relaxed...it is expected as one is begging that arm and body movement to a submissive hands up position is a given and it leaves an opportunity for striking the aggressor or drawing a weapon and firing at them...their impression is that you have submitted defeat and are at their mercy while you are actually launching an assault on them....

    well written and very descriptive....

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