Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long - Page 10

Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

This is a discussion on Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by razor02097 Wrong! basicbosch you are misinterpreting the law. A mistake that could get you locked up for the rest of your life. ...

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Thread: Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

  1. #136
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Wrong!

    basicbosch you are misinterpreting the law. A mistake that could get you locked up for the rest of your life.

    Unless you own the restroom you MUST retreat.
    So as I understand you. If I were to go to a public playground and I had to use the bathroom in an emergency, it is my duty as a citizen to be raped if I can't retreat or escape by force?

    Thats the most absurd thing I have ever heard. It's a good thing you didn't edit my states statute on self defense.

    Who would have thought you ONLY have the right to defend yourself at home.


  2. #137
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basicbosch View Post
    So as I understand you. If I were to go to a public playground and I had to use the bathroom in an emergency, it is my duty as a citizen to be raped if I can't retreat or escape by force?
    Thats the most absurd thing I have ever heard. It's a good thing you didn't edit my states statute on self defense.

    Who would have thought you ONLY have the right to defend yourself at home.
    If you run in there and startle a man at a urinal and he turns towards you...exposed...and you shoot him...NO, there is no legal justification to shoot.

    And since when do you admit you'd try to escape? You have clearly stated that you feel the law supports you just shooting...that you see this as a threat and wont try to use non-lethal force to leave....'that the threat of sexual assault' is all the justification you need and you have the right to shoot.'

    You have completely denied the part in bold so far.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #138
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Thank you for suggesting I hang around. I may just do that and dip into some of these other fictitious scenarios just to throw case law and statue law out there, and of course my own interpretation.

    A lot of you have take this entirely the wrong way.

    I know flat out that I wouldn't be legally justified for putting a clip in someone for using a rest room. I have insisted the entire time that the only way a male would see mine or I would see his is clearly during a sexual assault. Many of you continue to insist that I am a troll while insisting that I would cap someone using a urinal for taking a leak. Which I never would do.

    I have been in a situation where I believe at least 3 members of a 12 man jury would have had reasonable doubt, yet I didn't pull the trigger. You act like I'm some sort of loose cannon. That to me implies that most of you are trolls because you can't read what is actually in writing in front of you. Is this how you welcome and discuss with all of your guests?

    You have members here who clearly can not read a statute yet trying to explain to me the law.

    First they say it is only for life and death situations. When the law is presented where I can use deadly force against both (life and death, and sexual assault) situations. They then tell me I can only do so in my own home. As if I couldn't defend myself in a burger king if someone whipped a gun on me. Wake up, I can defend myself anywhere I need to. Maybe you need to refresh your CCW classes.

    I have spent the last half an our going over my states constitution on self defense and when I read Michigan Legislature - Act 309 of 2006 and Michigan Legislature - Act 310 of 2006 under the clear and understandable requirement for all laws. it clearly states that a person does not have to retreat or limit his use of force. Maybe you would like to look at the words again. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

    sexual assault sexual assault sexual assault

    Did I say sexual assault yet?? Did I say for taking a piss in public? No I don't think I did.

    it says if I believe the situation at hand requires deadly force I am within my legal right to do so. Does this mean that I can shoot someone if I am between him and the door? No, because that wouldn't be B]necessary[/B].

    However if he/she is between me and the door and I don't think I can overtake them physically and can't make my way around them, their body temp will be very cold by the time authorities arrive.

    I appreciate the conversation but a few of your members are less then gracious, clearly inwelcoming to new forum members, WHO WERE INVITED HERE TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!

  4. #139
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    BB obviously you have a great fear of nudity, a flasher or being the victim of a sexual assault that is on you nothing said here will change your view of life.
    Just wanted to add one thing though,
    It is not "CLIP" it is a "MAGAZINE". That is the little metal box thing that holds the shiny brass things that fit into the grip of a pistol.
    You have your pet peeves and I have mine.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  5. #140
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    BB, care to address the disparity of force/"ability" concerns that were brought up by me (in post 111) and others?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #141
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basicbosch View Post
    So as I understand you. If I were to go to a public playground and I had to use the bathroom in an emergency, it is my duty as a citizen to be raped if I can't retreat or escape by force?

    Thats the most absurd thing I have ever heard. It's a good thing you didn't edit my states statute on self defense.

    Who would have thought you ONLY have the right to defend yourself at home.
    what is absurd is you are accusing me of things that I never said.

    There are still many states that require you a duty to retreat. It isn't shoot or be raped... how about walking out the door?


    Your scared a man is going to rape you... in public... in the men's bathroom... That is the absurdity here. If it where me and some guy started advancing toward me, ignoring verbal warnings, the instant he touched me he would get the **** beat out of him.

    I don't need a gun. I don't need a knife. Low lives like that are not worth my freedom. In a public bathroom I would have enough witnesses even sheep to back my story. You put a gun into the equation and suddenly the police report turns from "he was defending himself" to "he shot an unarmed man"

    Hear that? That is the jail door slamming shut.

    Oh and BTW In case you missed it I retracted that statement you quoted because of the last part.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  7. #142
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    BB, care to address the disparity of force/"ability" concerns that were brought up by me (in post 111) and others?
    I would follow the training that I received.

    I understand in normal situations by law I'm only allowed to use equal force to someone attempting me assault me. If someone is yelling then I yell, they push I push, they strike I strike. They pull a weapon then I can do as I wish.

    However in a situation where someone were attempting to sexually assault me I would follow the same regulations that officers are allowed.

    Verbal Direction, Soft Empty Hands, Hard Empty Hands, Intermediate Weapons, and Deadly Force.

    In other words if someone were standing in front of me nude I would skip step 1 and move directly to pushing them away, if they resisted me then I would skip to pulling a weapon and threatening. If they continued I would use the weapon. I really don't feel it necessary to give them any verbal command to leave me alone. I would move right to pushing them and striking them if need be depending on their size. If they put their hands on me it would likely be the last thing they did if they didn't turn to run when I pulled out my pistol.

    Once again I'm not going to react to someone going about their daily business.

  8. #143
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    what is absurd is you are accusing me of things that I never said.

    There are still many states that require you a duty to retreat. It isn't shoot or be raped... how about walking out the door?


    Your scared a man is going to rape you... in public... in the men's bathroom... That is the absurdity here. If it where me and some guy started advancing toward me, ignoring verbal warnings, the instant he touched me he would get the **** beat out of him.

    I don't need a gun. I don't need a knife. Low lives like that are not worth my freedom. In a public bathroom I would have enough witnesses even sheep to back my story. You put a gun into the equation and suddenly the police report turns from "he was defending himself" to "he shot an unarmed man"

    Hear that? That is the jail door slamming shut.

    Oh and BTW In case you missed it I retracted that statement you quoted because of the last part.
    regarding topic 107. What you are looking for is there.

    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual

    obviously if there are three doors I can run out of any of them. However if after trying to fight my way out the only option left is using a gun whether he is armed or not, then thats what I am willing and prepared to do.

  9. #144
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Ohhhh, train wreck for sure.

    I can't believe this thread has ran this long, especially with little change since Post 80 (where I stopped last time, picked up at 140).

    BB - (I presume it is acceptable to refer you by this) First off, you need to seek some counseling. By both a Psychiatrist and a lawyer (preferably the latter before you HAVE to have one). I am the type of person that will give the benefit of the doubt to a person and try to visualize circumstances that may be present to justify their actions. In your case, I find none.

    Of the myriad of possibilities that I can come up with for you to be in a public restroom/locker room...well pretty much anywhere outside of your home, and justify your intent to virtually instantly resort to violence on anyone that is either already in there or comes in after you to use the facilities (but according to you, all others are coming in to violate you)...I got nothin'.

    Troll, agent of some anti gun org., molested as a child, or what ever your programming dictates, you will not receive support or assistance in this house (DC.com). If what you say is indeed truthful, you sir are on a clear cut path of self destruction, and I pity your future victim, as there will be one.

    ***DELETED***

    Yup. Type, walk away, delete and re-type, walk away...

    I pray to the gods that I never read about you in the media. There is going to be a needless/senseless loss of life in your future and then your worst fears are going to be realized on a daily basis with your new roommate and the rest of your private community. Your only hope will be permanent solitary confinement.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  10. #145
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    The key word here isn't "necessary" it is....

    Quote Originally Posted by basicbosch View Post
    regarding topic 107. What you are looking for is there.

    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual
    The key word in what you are saying isn't "necessary" the word you bolded. The key word is "reasonably," which you did not bold.

    You may think something is necessary, but other may think that determination was not reasonable. Those others will be known as prosecutors and jurors.

    Can't believe this is still going like the Energizer Bunny. Yikes.

    Oh, this topic got me curious about how rare such an event might be. I did a google news and a yahoo news search with the search terms: " public restroom" and "rape" and a different search with the search terms,
    "public restroom" and "sexual assault." Apparently there are few if any news stories of such events. I found only two hits and neither matched the scenario you are speaking of or even came close.

    If you go by the news search results, there isn't even much of a problem of males entering and assaulting females in their public restrooms. BB, try spending your mental energy on realistic worries about things with some
    higher chance of actually happening to you. Because if you don't, as Sticks wrote, "Your only hope will be permanent solitary confinement."

  11. #146
    Member Array rightdog's Avatar
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    People like BB are going to be the ones to make it tougher on all of us. Once he kills someone, there will be a large outcry to ban us all from reasonably protecting ourselves and families.

  12. #147
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    Here is my take short and simple. If the other guy tries to take my butt then he is going to get shot, Rape and attempted rape are grounds for use of deadly physical force period!
    One more step and it's on!

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I don't really have much to contribute to this thread at this time, except to say that BB sounds like a full fledged idiot that I want to stay far away from.

    It sounds to me like BB needs to be locked away in a cell somewhere, and if he pursues this course of action may very well be, justifiably so IMHO.

    Biker
    ^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^

    This needs to be national news, his picture on the back of something,,, OJ cartons or the like,
    He needs to do society a favor, and wear only tee shirts that have two bold BB"S on the front and back, so everyone in the country can steer clear of this misfit .
    What a maroon.


    Martin Luther King, Jr.:
    Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular?' But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because one's conscience tells one that it is right.
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  14. #149
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    re: dripster

    Quote Originally Posted by dripster View Post
    Here is my take short and simple. If the other guy tries to take my butt then he is going to get shot, Rape and attempted rape are grounds for use of deadly physical force period!
    Just a word on words. Rape and sexual assault are not quite the same thing-though they have been conflated in modern usage. Also, rape, sexual assault, and "aggravated" rape or "aggravated" sexual assault are not quite the same thing and state statutes will differ slightly on whether or not deadly force may be used if the crime is not "aggravated." Our code is a tad ambiguous.

    "imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault..." It is a tad hard to discern without knowledge of DA practices and case law if the separate mention of sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault can be interpreted to mean that "aggravation" (use of a weapon) is a necessary requisite or if the code is merely being redundant.

    Know the wording of statutes carefully, and be sure that the action of the other individual is what you think it is before you act.

    BB initially asserted that someone merely briefly showing, to use BB's words, "his junk," was sufficient justification. That is a bit like equating flashing with sexual assault. Both are crimes, but of a very different nature.

    Flashing might indicate some malicious intent, it might be a prelude to some more serious crime, but deadly force requires: ability opportunity jeopardy (and intent). So, if someone physically grabs you or presents a weapon and physically threatens you, or if someone who presents a clear disparity due to age and size expresses a serious intent-- not a joke or a careless moment--you may be justified IF they also have the ability to carry out the threat, the opportunity to carry out the threat too.

    In the scenarios we are discussing here, it will be almost impossible to demonstrate any of these unless the other person displayed a weapon, or unless you had the bruises from H2H, and even that might only mean that you started a fight.

    Again, instead of worrying about rare events which you can't find documentation for by doing Google News and Yahoo News searches, deal with the likely and more "reasonably" probable events which may befall any of us.

  15. #150
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    I Just started to further advance through the posts, and discovered this buffoon is running loose in Michigan somewhere
    Lord help us all(in Michigan)


    Have you ever noticed how nothing is impossible for those who don't have to do it?
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

    M&Pc .357sig, 2340Sigpro .357sig

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