Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long - Page 3

Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

This is a discussion on Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Divebum47 I'd stay away from him and his posting. If you answer his post or get involved in the thread, if he ...

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Thread: Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum47 View Post
    I'd stay away from him and his posting. If you answer his post or get involved in the thread, if he does shoot someone, you could be involved.

    Sounds like the guy is a full fledged homophobe without much reason to be so.
    Lord I hope not. Esp. since I was actively discouraging him.

    That's why I'd like to find a way to convince him his actions could indeed land him in jail for life.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)


  2. #32
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    I'm an LEO, and you can tell him from me that, should that scenario ever play out, he's going to be seeing a lot more male nudity (in the prison showers) than he ever counted on...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Yeah...yeah...

    Fine...
    Your relevant opinion is valued, and I dont mind joking around but this thread could easily turn into a flamefest and the defendent isnt even here to defend himself. (I see no defense really, but...)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I added the link to the original discussion in the first post.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #35
    Member Array Boreal21's Avatar
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    Please tell me this guy doesn't live in Utah. I don't want to be anywhere near this nutjob...

    His self-proclaimed fanatical puritanism and agoraphobia would work against him, not for him were there a situation where he used deadly force to "defend himself". If he already knows he's liable to have this completely UNREASONABLE reaction to someone going about their own private business in a public facility, he needs to be proactive and not put himself in a situation where a deadly encounter would take place. It is highly probable that you'll see some wang in a public men's room (can't say that I ever have tho... I'm too busy minding my own business?) or locker room. He needs to avoid those locations at all costs, or at least disarm before entering.

    BB, if you're reading this thread, you are not a reasonable person. You do not have a reasonable reaction to normal, everyday occurrences. A jury of reasonable people WILL NOT side with you. You need help, man. Please do the rest of us a favor and hang up the hogleg until you get your issues resolved.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreal21 View Post
    Please tell me this guy doesn't live in Utah. I don't want to be anywhere near this nutjob...

    His self-proclaimed fanatical puritanism and agoraphobia would work against him, not for him were there a situation where he used deadly force to "defend himself". If he already knows he's liable to have this completely UNREASONABLE reaction to someone going about their own private business in a public facility, he needs to be proactive and not put himself in a situation where a deadly encounter would take place. It is highly probable that you'll see some wang in a public men's room (can't say that I ever have tho... I'm too busy minding my own business?) or locker room. He needs to avoid those locations at all costs, or at least disarm before entering.

    BB, if you're reading this thread, you are not a reasonable person. You do not have a reasonable reaction to normal, everyday occurrences. A jury of reasonable people WILL NOT side with you. You need help, man. Please do the rest of us a favor and hang up the hogleg until you get your issues resolved.

    To be honest, in the original discussion, he says that he does avoid such places as much as possible. I asked about in grade and high school gym/sports...and he said he did then too.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I think it's just that he's extremely homophobic and also pretty puritanical in his views on the body, period.
    Then he has no place in a public restroom or locker room....
    Glock 19
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  8. #38
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    I would seriously suggest that you recommend he consult with an attorney regarding his legal theory. That way he can hear it straight from the horses mouth.

    If he is opposed to that, I'd consider him a nut job and quit posting in that thread on the forum.

    If he's opposed to giving his theory a try on a real trial attorney, then he's either not serious about it or as I already said, a nut job.

    My opinion is just like yours and everyone else's here... He has no legal standing for shooting an unarmed man in a public restroom based only information he has presented.

    Unless the "flasher" made other overt movements as to commit a personal attack on his person, he has no grounds just to shoot him down. A rape defense will not work until the man actually does something more than just show him his genitalia.

    I will say that Hopyard has a point. He does almost sound like a homicidal maniac trying out his theory on others before he looks for a victim to execute in a bathroom. "BB" has a point... it will be his word against a dead guy with his pants down. He may be looking for good opinions so he can figure out what lies to tell after the fact.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #39
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    Thumbs up

    I'm actually surprised that this thread has stayed pretty doggone decent.
    While in the process of reading the entry OP I would have bet my last wooden Moderator Nickel that I'd have been closing this thread by post....#s 4 or 5.
    Kudos.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I'm actually surprised that this thread has stayed pretty doggone decent.
    While in the process of reading the entry OP I would have bet my last wooden Moderator Nickel that I'd have been closing this thread by post....#s 4 or 5.
    Kudos.

    I agree and I appreciate it.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    As an LEO, I would arrest this guy in a second. His ONLY recourse would be to lie until his face fell off - if he EVER mentioned that the only "crime" the other guy committed was using a public urinal, he'd be spending a long, long time being exposed to a lot more than a casual unzipping in his local penitentiary...

    Now that his comments are public record for time immemorial (thanks, interwebs!), I think his goose is cooked should any scenario even remotely approaching this one take place, and this nut job actually does hurt/kill somebody.
    As a law enforcement officer, you obviously know criminal justice. I assume you were atleast went to college and not just an academy program.

    Never once did I say I would shoot people for using urinals, I suggested if someone came toward me with their genitals out.

    As I also have a criminal justice degree I understand I have a right to defend my life in case of fear of death, and sexual assault. You can read Michigan's Statute on the self defense law.

    SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
    Act 309 of 2006


    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
    Sec. 2.

    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.



    History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006

    You may also know that in criminal defense one may plead mental condition. Just because an arrest has been made doesn't mean an elected official such as a country prosecutor will charge someone with a crime they can't commit. First off there is no intent, I avoid public restrooms to begin with.

    So tell me where I am legally wrong please.

    imminent sexual assault as according to legal definition. http://www.law.uc.edu/current/experi...docs/Simon.pdf

    Reasonable is subject-able. It doesn't mean how a normal person would react. Consider first from the states POV that there is agraphobia
    A fear of sexual abuse. If a reasonable minded person suffers from this fear and is faced with a person walking overtly toward them undressed and not asking for help. You are suggesting they don't have a right to defend themselves?

    Are you suggesting that the penis has to be inside a body before there is imminent sexual assult about to happen?

    And yes I did call the police on a hooker who flashed me. I want the streets cleaned and trash out of my neighborhood.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Ladies and gentlemen of Defensive Carry, I introduce you to "BB" ^^^^^
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basicbosch View Post
    Reasonable is subject-able. It doesn't mean how a normal person would react. Consider first from the states POV that there is agraphobia
    A fear of sexual abuse. If a reasonable minded person suffers from this fear and is faced with a person walking overtly toward them undressed and not asking for help. You are suggesting they don't have a right to defend themselves?
    I googled 'agraphobia' and got nothing. I only got 'agoraphobia' which has nothing to do with sex, only public places. Can you link me to more info?

    And if it is indeed a true phobia and you are diagnosed with it....you will be considered unfit to carry a gun....'mental health' restriction.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #44
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Big applause for Mitchel and Biker; you guys just gave me my chuckle for the day.

    As for the OP's question. There are a couple of things you could do to straighten the guy out as far as legal use of force goes.

    1) Print out the statutes on use of deadly force which exist in your state.

    2) Give the general explanation of ability, opportunity, jeopardy, (and I like to include "intent.") If he is at all rational he will realize that he isn't looking at the situation in a particularly rational way.

    3) "BB says he rarely ever uses public restroom or locker rooms and if he does, uses stalls or private showers."

    He may well have several issues here. If he isn't just being a troll and a jerk, he would help himself with a trip to a clinical psychologist to discuss his inappropriate fears.

    4) "He also claims that something called 'agoraphobia" (an extreme fear of public places) could be used to justify his reactions."

    The insanity defense might mitigate the punishment he receives but in today's environment even if (somehow) he got an acquittal based on this claim, he would spend the rest of his life in an institution. Think for example, John Hinckley.
    As I discussed already on the other forum. I did call my states court review board, a country asst district attorney, and the states AG office and went over the scenario with them. I went over the states statute on deadly force and asked them what they thought. They asked if there was intent, and malice. I said of course not. Being bare of both, where is the crime?

    Are you suggesting that a verbal threat of rape has to occur before one has the right to defend themselves? I'm reading my sixth edition criminal law principles and cases book and it disagree's with you completely.

    You may read it out of my bookif you wish. Alibris: 10133334227

    The suggested action taken to protect mylself from sexual assault has neither mens, or actus- reus.

    Now show me where I can not defend myself against someone sexually assulting me. Please.

  15. #45
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I googled 'agraphobia' and got nothing. I only got 'agoraphobia' which has nothing to do with sex, only public places. Can you link me to more info?

    And if it is indeed a true phobia and you are diagnosed with it....you will be considered unfit to carry a gun....'mental health' restriction.
    Google

    Simple google searchs work.

    agraphobia: Information from Answers.com

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