Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

This is a discussion on Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thanks. I did Google it and got nothing. But your link worked. From one source: It should be noted that evidence supports that both real ...

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Thread: Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Thanks. I did Google it and got nothing. But your link worked.

    From one source: It should be noted that evidence supports that both real sexual abuse and also false accusations of sexual abuse are prevalent.

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  3. #47
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Thanks. I did Google it and got nothing. But your link worked.

    From one source: It should be noted that evidence supports that both real sexual abuse and also false accusations of sexual abuse are prevalent.

    Agraphobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Agraphobia : What is Agraphobia - What is Agraphobia the fear of? - Information on phobias, and phobia help.

    http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index...u=2723&spage=2

    Plenty of resources available.

  4. #48
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    I invite everyone to read the context of the conversation. I do not believe she has been accurate. She portrays I would shoot someone for using the bathroom. Which isn;t the case.

    I said I avoid using stand up urinals. I use booths. If some man exposed himself to me in a restroom booth he has to go out of his way to make that action happen. I have not ever in my entire life used a stand up urinal. There would not even be the possibility that he could have accidental exposed himself to me. Believe you me if there is another mans penis anywhere around me it will have to be by force. I wouldn't put myself into a situation where it would or could likely happen. I'm not suggesting that I would shoot a man in a bathroom who happens to have a seizure while taking a break. I wouldn't rationalize this as a sexual attempt. However if some man did come toward me with his genitals out I wouldn't give him the chance to get any closer.


    There isn't a reasonable situation where any male would be stripping down near me.

    You can try to give me 1000 possible situations where somehow it could possibly happen and no, it wouldn't, because I overtly avoid those situations.

    If a males penis is in my view it is because they made it happen. I have a right to defend myself against a sexual assault. According to my state statute I do not have to retreat. I have the right to stand my ground.

    I am open to discussion. I will be back tomorrow to read your reply.

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Does anyone else think this is much ado about nothing? Have there been a rash of bathroom assaults I'm not aware of?

    Is anyone seriously concerned about the likelihood someone exposing themselves in a public restroom?

    Situational awareness being what it is...I find this thread a little disturbing as to the reasonableness of shooting someone for exposing themselves. Why the focus on public restrooms?

    I think there are some un-addressed psychological issues that need tending to....seriously...

    Just when I thought I've heard it all...
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  6. #50
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    Hi basicbosch, Sorry if I got the wrong impression of you.

    I will say that I pretty much stand by my original post in so far as were I stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n
    Unless the "flasher" made other overt movements as to commit a personal attack on his person, he has no grounds just to shoot him down. A rape defense will not work until the man actually does something more than just show him his genitalia.
    In the course of my career I've had the opportunity to attend many classes and programs on a variety of subject matter in all the public safety fields from EMS and Fire/Rescue service to Law Enforcement and Forensic Science.

    From what I understand is that most deviate sex offenders who hang out in public restrooms, especially at highway rest stops and other isolated areas are people who are looking for willing partners to engage in what most of us consider deviate sex. They have certain rituals of shall we say... feeling out the other person as to whether they are a willing participant. They are probably very much as fearful of being stomped into the ground and beat half to death if they approach the wrong individual or equally fearful of being arrested by an undercover officer on vice duty.

    So, as I said in my first post, if all they are doing is exposing their genitalia and making an offer without any further aggressive acts towards you, I still believe you are on very weak ground to employ lethal force at that point.

    I believe possessing a high level of situational awareness and in condition orange as anyone should be when using such a facility as a roadside public restroom you will likely avoid being accosted. Also a firm and aggressive verbal challenge such as "Back off... You've got the wrong guy!" as you take an aggressive defensive posture and they will likely apologize and exit post haste.

    Now, reading the Michigan Statute you posted, it's pretty clear you can employ lethal force to repel a sexual attack. However, I would think merely exposing one self and making an offer to engage in a consensual sex act as offensive and repulsive as it may be, is not going to be considered the same thing as forcible rape where lethal force is justified in the eyes of the prosecutor.

    I also believe you're much more likely to be the victim of a straight up robbery in a place like that than victim of a sexual deviate praying on grown men in a public john.

    As I also stated in my first post, if you are that concerned about it, I would consult with a criminal trial lawyer on the matter and present your theory to see if he believes you are on solid legal ground.

    Just my humble opinion. I'm not an attorney and no law degree. Just a 30 year veteran paramedic who has worked some pretty seedy places and seen some pretty sick stuff over the years.

    BTW... I avoid a lot of public restrooms in bad areas like the ones mentioned like the plague myself. I'm well aware bad things happen in places like that. I carry a roll of toilet paper and a shovel in my car because I'd rather use the woods than be in a place like that. So far I haven't had to do that. I've always managed to find a fairly decent store or restaurant when out on the road. Not the best of places but certainly better than at a roadside rest stop or places like the bus station which are known high risk areas.
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Seems to be a gross misunderstanding. The posts had nothing to do with restrooms, per se. Rather, it was simply a question of assault and what justifies the of force to defend against it. As always, your own state's laws will be the guide.

    Here in Oregon, a person may legally use the degree of force one deems necessary to halt an attack, up to and including the use of deadly force if warranted (ie, upon a forcible felony).
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Hi basicbosch, Sorry if I got the wrong impression of you.

    I will say that I pretty much stand by my original post in so far as were I stated:



    In the course of my career I've had the opportunity to attend many classes and programs on a variety of subject matter in all the public safety fields from EMS and Fire/Rescue service to Law Enforcement and Forensic Science.

    From what I understand is that most deviate sex offenders who hang out in public restrooms, especially at highway rest stops and other isolated areas are people who are looking for willing partners to engage in what most of us consider deviate sex. They have certain rituals of shall we say... feeling out the other person as to whether they are a willing participant. They are probably very much as fearful of being stomped into the ground and beat half to death if they approach the wrong individual or equally fearful of being arrested by an undercover officer on vice duty.

    So, as I said in my first post, if all they are doing is exposing their genitalia and making an offer without any further aggressive acts towards you, I still believe you are on very weak ground to employ lethal force at that point.

    I believe possessing a high level of situational awareness and in condition orange as anyone should be when using such a facility as a roadside public restroom you will likely avoid being accosted. Also a firm and aggressive verbal challenge such as "Back off... You've got the wrong guy!" as you take an aggressive defensive posture and they will likely apologize and exit post haste.

    Now, reading the Michigan Statute you posted, it's pretty clear you can employ lethal force to repel a sexual attack. However, I would think merely exposing one self and making an offer to engage in a consensual sex act as offensive and repulsive as it may be, is not going to be considered the same thing as forcible rape where lethal force is justified in the eyes of the prosecutor.

    I also believe you're much more likely to be the victim of a straight up robbery in a place like that than victim of a sexual deviate praying on grown men in a public john.

    As I also stated in my first post, if you are that concerned about it, I would consult with a criminal trial lawyer on the matter and present your theory to see if he believes you are on solid legal ground.

    Just my humble opinion. I'm not an attorney and no law degree. Just a 30 year veteran paramedic who has worked some pretty seedy places and seen some pretty sick stuff over the years.

    BTW... I avoid a lot of public restrooms in bad areas like the ones mentioned like the plague myself. I'm well aware bad things happen in places like that. I carry a roll of toilet paper and a shovel in my car because I'd rather use the woods than be in a place like that. So far I haven't had to do that. I've always managed to find a fairly decent store or restaurant when out on the road. Not the best of places but certainly better than at a roadside rest stop or places like the bus station which are known high risk areas.
    Quoting for emphasis...because it needs to be read again...

    I agree with Bark'n...someone who flashes you isn't a sexual assault...and not (successfully) defensible in shooting. I'd say be a good witness... and call 911...but NOT unlawfully detain or kidnap them until police arrive...
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  9. #53
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    A woman flashes him so he calls police, puts her in his car and the dispatcher listens in, then they make a traffic stop on the car and she is arrested. Sorry just cant get over that.
    What is funny though is he stated that he never knew of the outcome, well in most states what she did would constitute a misdeameanor committed outside the presence of an LEO so it would require him to sign an affidavit in regards to the events and for him to testify in court unless she plead guilty, depending on what the dispatcher heard. Why after flashing would she then get into the car with him unless money was involved? To many unknowns.
    Guys you have got to go to the link 9MMare posted it is great entertainment this guy seems to be convinced he is in the right and seems to be totally serious in his views.

    Ok posted the above before I had a chance to read the new posts that were up. Knew it was a hooker! Now in regards to BB and his situation. The jury would look at the totality of the circumstance in regards to you using deadly force on someone who is threatening you with a sexual assault by coming towards you with their penis exposed. Depending on what is said and done by the suspect the mere act of exposing himself in most cases will be simple misdeameanor and would not justify the use of deadly force or any force for that matter except for calling 911 to report a crime. If he advanced towards you with drawn penis threatening to sodomize you and you do not feel you can escape or use non lethal means to prevent the attack then I guess you draw and shoot and take your chances in court, but after what you have posted on here and myspace in reference to your phobias of naked men and bathroom scenarios and your now premeditated responses I would not bet on a good outcome. Just my opinion. 9MMare I was nice and kept it clean.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basicbosch View Post
    As I discussed already on the other forum. I did call my states court review board, a country asst district attorney, and the states AG office and went over the scenario with them. I went over the states statute on deadly force and asked them what they thought. They asked if there was intent, and malice. I said of course not. Being bare of both, where is the crime?

    Are you suggesting that a verbal threat of rape has to occur before one has the right to defend themselves? I'm reading my sixth edition criminal law principles and cases book and it disagree's with you completely.

    You may read it out of my bookif you wish. Alibris: 10133334227

    The suggested action taken to protect mylself from sexual assault has neither mens, or actus- reus.

    Now show me where I can not defend myself against someone sexually assulting me. Please.
    Your posts obviously show intent and malice against homosexuals, and now they are a matter of permanent public record. good luck with your defense in the future.
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  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    basicbosch

    I stand by my original post.

    Unless the guy assaulting you is a 300 lb linebacker why can't you just stand up for yourself? You are telling me you need a gun to defend yourself? You are willing to kill because someone exposed themselves to you? You should rethink your priorities. Please for the love of God and all that is holy... rethink your priorities.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    You can try to give me 1000 possible situations where somehow it could possibly happen and no, it wouldn't, because I overtly avoid those situations.
    Actually it has happened to me before. I was in a stall. urinals are across from the stall. I am leaving stall and guy in urinal turns before fully zipping. I see a tip of peen. Intended sexual assault or flashing? Hardly.
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  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i salute...fully clothed...everyone for keeping this thread pretty damned clean...and i withold my opinion as it would tarnish the good intent of others attempts to continue the thread...

    i will recommend psyciatric help to bb...interesting subject and outlook...i hope everything works out for you...

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    I think the gentleman may be harboring feeling of homosexuality. In his own mind, he wants to be percieved as a heterosexual male. But when placed in an environment of possible naked male bodies or male body parts, he wants to resort to violence or flee. Thus avoiding those places.

    Males are exposed to other mens bodies all the time. Locker rooms, gyms, showers, etc. It is common place and should not a fearful thing. Just the way it is.

    Look at his reaction to the woman that exposed herself. He had her arrested. Most guys would have asked for another look or a photograph. Not the best behavior but not really harmful either.

    So I think the fellow needs o seek counseling and address that basis of his fears in going to public restrooms and possible adversion to male nudity.

    I am not a psychologist but I am staying at a Holiday Inn Express right now.

  15. #59
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    I got nothing but jokes to contribute to this so...
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  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    You sure this isn't some 13 year old having fun on the "interwebs"?
    BB sounds like a troll. I would hope that there are not idiots out there that think this way! If he is for real than I hope that at least the state he lives in has safeguards in place to keep him from purchasing an kind of weapon. In fact I hope his only means of communication is a computer, because he should not be allowed to pick up sharp objects like pens or pencils.
    There is no telling what he might do. Suppose some woman bends over to pick up a paper she dropped in the office, and BB sees her do this possible revealing more clevage or leg than he can tolerate. He might attack her with said pen and kill her because he felt threatened.

    All iin all I stand by my first opinion, he's a Troll.

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