Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long - Page 6

Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

This is a discussion on Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by basicbosch Now show me where I can not defend myself against someone sexually assulting me. Please. If you read what people are ...

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Thread: Legal aspects of shooting unarmed man in public restroom - long

  1. #76
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    For bascibosch

    Quote Originally Posted by basicbosch View Post

    Now show me where I can not defend myself against someone sexually assulting me. Please.
    If you read what people are writing and think carefully about what it is they are trying to convey to you, it is NOT that you can not defend yourself against sexual assault.

    Rather, you seem to have a distorted understanding of what sexual assault is. You seem to interpret very ordinary acts which occur routinely in public restrooms as something they are not; which is, they are not acts of sexual assault.

    Because your thinking on this issue appears to be distorted you are --though you do not realize it-- a danger to others. And to yourself as well.

    My grandpa used to have a saying that went roughly like this:

    If one person calls you nuts, it doesn't mean anything. If fifty people call you nuts you better give some consideration to the possibility you are nuts.

    I'm not saying that to insult you. I'm trying to give you an idea that
    there is a near uniformity of opinion by posters here that something is wrong. Give that serious consideration. It might save you lots and lots of inconvenience, and maybe even your own life.
    Last edited by Hopyard; May 27th, 2010 at 05:36 PM.


  2. #77
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    No self-respecting, professional dept would take him on....the screening process (psychological interview, oral exam) should have him shredded out early. While I don't question his intelligence, I do question his decision-making skills and ethics.

    Hopefully we won't be reading about him in the news as a rookie LEO who "made a mistake" or permit-holder who shot someone in a public restroom for looking at him sideways.
    even a very well adjusted woman from one of my classes didn't pass the exam for one of the local authorities where I live, and she is ex military! (she got into the state police academy however)
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  3. #78
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    BB has issues that the judge who sentences him can address. Or his cellmate Mongo.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    BB is bat$&*@ crazy
    You sir have in 4 words summed up exactly the problem that others have taken paragraphs to try and explain. You have my compliments.

  5. #80
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    Lots of posts of yours are worthy to go over. Most of them very police and very much appreciated. However I have been evaluated after my brother died and I am very much a sane person. Now let me go back to comment on the posts worth noting.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Davies View Post
    Unless we are in a position to know the intimate details of a person's life, we do not know, for example, if "BBs" fear of sexaul assult is an unfounded phobia, or an understandable reaction due to past personal trauma . Most of the time, we never really know a person's true story.

    So, on the one hand, the fear of sexual assult may be a semi-reasonable response to past events [when I was in High School I was working in the Strawberry Felds of NW Oregon, we had another employee who had just returned from a combat tour in Viet Nam--he was riding on the back of one of the farms trucks when it started backfiring: in a flash, he was off the truck and running & dodging through the fields --in the context of NW Oregon, his response was shall we say, rather over-the-top; in light of where he had just come from, his response was pretty darned normal]. So "BB's" reactions may be a form of PTSD reaction to past trauma.

    Yet, on the other hand, since "BB" is apparently aware of his "phobia", it seems to me that it is therefore incumbant upon him to get (or continue to receive) professional help for his extreme reactions. Also, since he is personally aware of his own reactions, it is also incumbent upon him to work to control/mitigate his own potential over-reactions. I would agree with Barkn that as repugnant as a homo-sexual invitation to consensual sex would be, that to automatically assume that forcible rape is about to occur is a logical fallacy that is the result of taking counsel of one's own fears. Would such an invitation be gross yep! Would such an invitation be justifiable for use of deadly force?? Don't think so, espicially since "BB" has already personally acknowledged his phobia.

    This seems a reasonable place for something with less than lethal impact. Say for example pepper spray. Given "BB's" personal acknowldgment of his phobia it seems to me that a jury may well view his publically-stated reflexive use of deadly force as an "execution" of the potential offender rather than self-defense.

    BB-brother, if you are not already getting treatment, find a good psychiatrist or therapist and get help so this does not continue to rule your life and get some pepper-spray or other less-than-lethal form of defense to give yourself a variety of options. For example, they used to make a pepper-spray that had an indelible purple dye--if somebody did approach you in such a situation, if you pepper prayed them in the face AND exposed genitals, the dye-colored genitalia would certainly lend credibility to your story to the police
    This would be as close to my situation as anyone here has come to. no one here knows my story. Where I have been and walked in my shoes for 1 second.

    I will take into consideration the spray painting of flashers, however I can reason the difference between some ahole trying to flash me for a reaction and someone trying to sodomize me. I know what a sexual assault is. I have a criminal justice degree. My favorite class was PPCT and I know how to defend myself against someone. Your post was very much appreciated.

  7. #82
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I'll go one better:
    Stopped at a highway rest area, myself, and two co workers on a road trip. We enter and there is a man, obviously not quite "right" standing at a urnial with his pants and underware all the way down to his ankles.
    He obviously figures this is how he does it at home so this is how it's done in public.
    We all move to a different area of the rest room. Luckily it was a large restroom with a chest high dividing wall and more urnials on the other side. When the guy finishes his business he wanders around the restroom, singing to himself. Luckily he has by now raised his pants. I think he was waiting for a traveling companion that was driving him to finish up because I don't think the state would issue him a drivers license.
    Anyways we finish and leave. In now way did I consider him a threat just because he was flashing his stuff. I was not about to drop him in his tracks just because he had issues.
    BB would probably freak out and shoot this poor guy, the guys driver, and the horse they rode in on because they must all be deviants.
    The situation that I suggested on myspace has less to do with public restrooms then someone seeking to sexually assault me.

    If I were to walk into a restroom and see a guy with his pants around his ankles I would turn around and walk back out. I don't have medical problems that require the desperate need to relieve myself at once so I would wait my turn. If I notice someone parked in the lot waiting for someone inside I would inform them that someone is acting absurd in the bathroom and they might need some help.

    However I did find your post the funniest so far and it took me a few mintures to stop LOL.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilraen View Post
    I think this nails it pretty squarely.

    BB has some pretty severe denial going on, and needs counseling ASAP. His emphasis on "what happens if I'm assaulted" is overshadowing the *much* larger, critical issue of why he thinks espying male genitalia in a male restroom should be considered an assault.
    both of your theories would hold weight if it weren't for the gay friends that I have. I don't have a problem with people being gay, I have a problem with people having non procreational sex. I don't hate or dislike the individual though, usually they are very friendly people. I just make it clear I'm not one of them. They usually take better to that then a strike to the top of the head with a 3 pound bar. I would point out that I'm over 30 and on line thus not in a prison cell. Its likely that I haven't attempted to harm someone for being gay.

  9. #84
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    BB wrote: "I said I avoid using stand up urinals. I use booths. "

    BB, are you unable to empty your bladder when using a urinal, or when someone else is nearby? Do you need to use secluded restrooms and booths because you "lockup" in public circumstances and can't empty your bladder?

    It is sort of odd, the acronym "BB" so easily derived from your screen name
    is also used for the term-- "bashful bladder"--an emotional disorder with some attributes similar to agoraphobia, which has the correct medical name, "paruresis."

    Folks who suffer from paruresis often go to remarkable lengths to hide their inability to pee; suffer huge sense of personal embarrassment and degradation of their own sense of masculinity--if they are male. They sometimes (not invariably) will attribute their difficulty using public restrooms to psycho-social causes and imagine that others will attack them while they are peeing.

    Please see International Paruresis Association Home Page and Paruretic.Org Shy Bladder Information if this is the real reason you hide in booths and seeks secluded restrooms, and prefer to stay at home to the point where you fear being agoraphobic or are argoraphobic.

    Fear and phobia of the kind you are describing is sometimes readily treatable with what is called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and "graduated exposure" to the feared situation. The brain is a "show me" organ. We can't convince you that your fears are irrational, but if you were slowly introduced to the things you fear -- sight of a partially naked body, being in a public restroom when others are present--- your brain will quickly discover that nothing bad happens, your world doesn't come to an end, and the inappropriate thoughts you now have will dissipate.

    Please consider seeking some professional help. You need to be able to get out and about, and part of doing that involves using public restrooms. Therefore, you need to learn to feel safe and comfortable there--- as most folks typically are.

    I can assure you that in my nearly 70 years on earth I have never witnessed anything inappropriate in any public restroom. In your case, too, instead of seeking out secluded places, seek out slightly busy places (if you don't have paruresis) because you can gain a sense of safety from the presence of more than one individual in the room with you at the same time. E.g., do you really think someone will start with you in a moderately busy public restroom with two or three others around as witnesses? It won't happen.

    As for your understanding of the law, everyone here has informed you that you are misinterpreting. You have a choice. You can stubbornly adhere to your mistaken ideas, or you can accept the message you are getting and perhaps in the process, save yourself very considerable trouble.
    I don't have a problem using a public restroom, first off it is always more comfortable to piss or 2 sitting down then standing up. Second off I understand it's bad for your prostate to piss standing up all of the time.

    I use a stall out of respect for myself and those around me. I personally wouldn't want to expose myself to anyone else, as I wouldn't like them exposing themselves to me. It isn't because I'm uncomfortable with my own body. I'm not all that concerned with anyone else's body either, I have seen porn on the interwebs..... I didn't shoot my monitor. So in short I do appreciate the advice and it certainly would be funny to announce to everyone in a restroom that I am following the advice of someone on line as I announce your instructions, I just couldn't do it with a strait face.

  10. #85
    Member Array basicbosch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    This is actually turning into quite a funny thread. So far, I'm counting 7 posts hinting/recommending psychological counseling and 1 post for a medical condition.

    This is chock full of win....
    Thats because 8 people are certian I have a problem with people who piss standing up. They are funny posts though.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    No self-respecting, professional dept would take him on....the screening process (psychological interview, oral exam) should have him shredded out early. While I don't question his intelligence, I do question his decision-making skills and ethics.

    Hopefully we won't be reading about him in the news as a rookie LEO who "made a mistake" or permit-holder who shot someone in a public restroom for looking at him sideways.
    I am certain you won't be reading anything like that. I have had the situation where I was armed and justified to shoot my ex fiancé, ex husband. Just before he threw her off the steps and came inside where I was standing in the middle of the room with my pistol I dropped the clip and flung it under the couch, then I remembered Michigan's duty to retreat and ran out the back door with him following me, I created a scene and he jumped on me and I used fluid shock wave strikes and finally head locked him until deputies arrived.

    The funny thing that day, the officer knew him because he had been called there before. He gave me the advice before they drove away with him, next time make sure there is only one side of the story to tell........ This was after I told him I stood waiting with my pistol pointed at the door.

    I know the levels of force. This is the class I took. PPCT Management Systems, Inc. in college.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    If you read what people are writing and think carefully about what it is they are trying to convey to you, it is NOT that you can not defend yourself against sexual assault.

    Rather, you seem to have a distorted understanding of what sexual assault is. You seem to interpret very ordinary acts which occur routinely in public restrooms as something they are not; which is, they are not acts of sexual assault.
    Well I would say get to know a subject before you decide you get graded on it. I understand what a flasher is, I know what indecent exposure is as well. The situation I suggested was if a man showed me his junk coming toward me, making an action to assault me, I would defend myself to the limits of the law. I also suggested that if any male seen my junk I would shoot him as well. Now take into stark consideration that I don't flash other men, I have no desire to undress myself around another man. if in fact another man were seeing my junk, it would certainly be during an assault. It wouldn't accidental happen.

    Instead you as well as a few of you took the situation of a highway rest area serial killer.

    I wonder where people get such ideas. Well it is the Internet here and the source is someone who insists that you can only defend yourself with lethal force from someone who is armed. Which isn't the case. There are several factors for justifiable homicide. One being imminent sexual assault.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    even a very well adjusted woman from one of my classes didn't pass the exam for one of the local authorities where I live, and she is ex military! (she got into the state police academy however)
    I never took an exam. You are a far different person from me. After getting my degree I made the decision that our justice system is socially stacked against people based on class. I find it completely hypocritical to throw someone in prison for 5 years for cocaine possession, while someone with crack will get at least 2 times the penalty. I wouldn't place someone under arrest for a drug addiction, or for not paying their child support. I don't care about the 1994 Child Support ACT that Bill Clinton made law, I know full well we got rid of debtors prison over 150 years ago. That was just Clinton's way of eliminating social welfare reductions.

    I am far to idealistic.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Seems to be a gross misunderstanding. The posts had nothing to do with restrooms, per se. Rather, it was simply a question of assault and what justifies the of force to defend against it. As always, your own state's laws will be the guide.

    Here in Oregon, a person may legally use the degree of force one deems necessary to halt an attack, up to and including the use of deadly force if warranted (ie, upon a forcible felony).
    I have been spending 2 days trying to explain this. For some reason people just don't understand it.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    A woman flashes him so he calls police, puts her in his car and the dispatcher listens in, then they make a traffic stop on the car and she is arrested. Sorry just cant get over that.
    What is funny though is he stated that he never knew of the outcome, well in most states what she did would constitute a misdeameanor committed outside the presence of an LEO so it would require him to sign an affidavit in regards to the events and for him to testify in court unless she plead guilty, depending on what the dispatcher heard. Why after flashing would she then get into the car with him unless money was involved? To many unknowns.
    Guys you have got to go to the link 9MMare posted it is great entertainment this guy seems to be convinced he is in the right and seems to be totally serious in his views.

    Ok posted the above before I had a chance to read the new posts that were up. Knew it was a hooker! Now in regards to BB and his situation. The jury would look at the totality of the circumstance in regards to you using deadly force on someone who is threatening you with a sexual assault by coming towards you with their penis exposed. Depending on what is said and done by the suspect the mere act of exposing himself in most cases will be simple misdeameanor and would not justify the use of deadly force or any force for that matter except for calling 911 to report a crime. If he advanced towards you with drawn penis threatening to sodomize you and you do not feel you can escape or use non lethal means to prevent the attack then I guess you draw and shoot and take your chances in court, but after what you have posted on here and myspace in reference to your phobias of naked men and bathroom scenarios and your now premeditated responses I would not bet on a good outcome. Just my opinion. 9MMare I was nice and kept it clean.
    I don't seek out nudest beach's and perform citizen arrests if thats what you thought.

    She solicited herself to me while I had 911 on the phone. When the officer pulled me over I told her I was on the phone with 911 and showed her. I never heard another word.

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