Actual occurence

This is a discussion on Actual occurence within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What's your 20/20 hindsight on this? 1: If the victim were able to CC (which he was not at the time). 2: As is (no ...

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Thread: Actual occurence

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Actual occurence

    What's your 20/20 hindsight on this?

    1: If the victim were able to CC (which he was not at the time).
    2: As is (no handgun avail.) No SD training. And some SA (as you will see).

    January, 2010, 2:35 AM, -10 (wind chill about -30)
    Victim: 50 YO Male in pretty good shape. Walking home from work (been doing this 1.5 mile walk each way for 15 years). Wearing carhart overalls and a carhart coat. Carrying a lunch bucket. Has a small (2&1/2"-3" folding knife).

    Victim: Walking home sees headlights illuminating street in front of him from behind, hears car slowing, sees the headlight beams slow as well.

    Victim: Thinks "This isn't good." Gets knife out and opens it with gloved hands, holds knife in front down low while continuing to walk. Turns around.

    BG: Within 3 feet (has run up to victim from behind). "Give me your wallet... I've got a knife," shows a long kitchen type butcher knife in hand under coat, to victim.

    Victim: "Not giving you anything!" Jinks/feints with right shoulder (like he's going to fight the guy?). Notices BG doesn't even flinch.

    BG: Kicks lunch bucket out of victim's hand.

    While all this is happening (quickly as you have read this or quicker) BG car is cruising past...

    Victim: Is cold cocked from left side and is now on the ground on all fours... still holding his little knife... He is screaming for help, he is trying to get up, he is being kicked, in the head and ribs... BY 4 BADGUYS. He has been stabbed twice in the back with a 5-6" blade that would have gone thru and thru were it not for the carharts.

    Samaritan: Heard yelling, turned on porch light, went out and yelled to BGs, "Cops are on the way..! get off him..!" repeatedly... finally, they quit and ran to the car and drove off.

    Samaritan: Helped victim up and into house.

    Cops called ambulance, victim did not know he had been stabbed. One wound below left rear ribcage, chipped a rib but missed all organs! One wound left buttocks.

    What would you have done?

    All four of the BGs were caught. One was known to carry a sawed-off shotgun down his pantsleg. All (but one) are free on bond, pending trial... Victim cannot say for certain that it was BG 1 who stabbed him. Victim cannot positively identify any of the other attackers. (fortunately, being dumb criminals, they've been busy rattin' on each other, though "none know who did the stabbing").

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    sounds like a residential type neighborhood by the fact that the samaritan turned on a porch light and offered assistance...

    at the first sign something is wrong a direction change...either back the way you came to force the vehicle to make a correction and commit to you or up a drivewa/walk toward an occupied home...that much more distance they would have to cover to get to you and more involvement from neighbors quickly if it happens in their front yards/porch...make noise while youre moving and make it clear that you need help..it sounds cliche but yelling "fire" would draw multiple neighbor attention...as opposed to people not wanting to get involved...

    i am guessing they didnt want to chase as it would pull them away from their getaway vehicle...

    another option would be dropping the wallet and running...you challenged multiple attackers in a poor situation for the victim....and sa wasnt that good...it realized something was going amiss but did nothing to prevent or derail the attack...

    i was chased down by a guy once and ran right into a backyard where a homeowner was stunned when he saw me come over the fence...i immediately apologized...told him i was being chased and disappeared into the next yard...the person chasing me broke off as soon as i went to the backyard ...not his turf and didnt know what to expect....i dealt with him the next day on my terms n a very public area...

    edit....sorry..i missed the if carrying question...draw and concealed when something didnt feel right...face the potential attacker and request they stand down...any threat and present...shoot if necessary...dont know about the shotgun but youre facing multiple attackers...you are in fear of great bodily harm or a forcible felony...make noise indicating you need help and hope they go away cause if they dont theres gonna be a mess on the sidewalk....

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Some situations have so many things wrong with them to begin with, that any satisfactory outcome is nearly impossible.

    I would not put myself in the described position to begin with.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Some situations have so many things wrong with them to begin with, that any satisfactory outcome is nearly impossible.

    I would not put myself in the described position to begin with.
    you mean you wouldnt walk home in the middle of the night i take it...

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I would not put myself in the described position to begin with.
    walking alone in the dark.... I always check my six multiple times, ones you have 4 BGs behind you 3 feet away there is little time to do anything but run....
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  7. #6
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    to try and answer the Q...as soon as my SA went up... If I could draw without showing my weapon and hide it I would... (its cold so I am wearing a jacket so this is very likely) and I would continue to watch my back.
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I wouldn't walk home either... But, this fellow has been doing it without incident for 15 years.

    The neighborhood is old (and used to be a "good" older neighborhood), and in proximity to the factory at which he works. He has worked the 3-11 shift for the 15 years he has worked at the plant and has always walked to and from home... on the night in question he had worked a 12 hour shift, and hence the 2:35 am time frame...

    Company rules prevent weapons on plant property (to include parking lots). As he was walking, no opportunity to even have it in a car. He no longer walks, BTW.

    If I were "able to carry" in this situation (walking, cold, coat) I think the gun would have been in a coat pocket, with my hand on it at all times.

    In better weather, other carry options would be used.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    you mean you wouldnt walk home in the middle of the night i take it...
    Your words, not mine.

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    New Member Array TheCalvinist's Avatar
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    Im not saying anyone should break the law but i would definately be having a gun on me if im walking that late at night..id also have a bigger knife a flashlight and be on a level of SA that would probably resemble paranoia...
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    the second he saw the knife.... BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM .. until threat is stopped.

    Person comes out of the house,

    Person : "please call the police these guys just tried to kill me ".

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Your words, not mine.
    it was an inquisitive statement...you are the one who left it open...i was trying to get more information...

    lets try it another way...you are the guy who beat him...so you would know better?...

    you wouldnt be walking home alone in the middle of the night?...

    you dont leave home now and are confined to a padded room...so you dont have a choice?...

    or how about....i am so sorry...what do you mean by that statement?...

    its real easy to be generic and not give an opinion or answer...but it really doesnt play into helping with the scenario at all does it?....

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    What I meant was that I would never be/put myself in the totality of that situation.
    1. Fifty years old with no SD training.
    2. Walking home at 2:30 in the morning.
    3. -30*
    4. No weapon, other than a 2-3" knife.

    It is not one thing, it is the totality of all of them that creates a position that I would not put myself in.
    I would have no problem walking home at 2:30am if necessary for some reason. After working 4-5 riots and hundreds and hundreds of felony arrests, I am not afraid of the boogie man, but I would be carrying more than a 2-3" knife, in addition to my experience and training.

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    re: Guantes

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    What I meant was that I would never be/put myself in the totality of that situation.
    1. Fifty years old with no SD training.
    2. Walking home at 2:30 in the morning.
    3. -30*
    4. No weapon, other than a 2-3" knife.

    Regarding number 4--- OP posts from Iowa which still is not a shall issue state. It will be soon. The fellow walking did not have a legal option to carry a firearm; or the option to keep it with him at work.

    He did about as good as he could under lousy circumstance. Four on one, getting "cold cocked," an encounter with known bad guys who carry sawed offs.

    I'd say he is lucky as can be to be still be around this earth. Moreover, even if armed with a handgun, it could have gone South for him with 4 on one and a shotgun being in the mix. There's no guarantee he wouldn't have taken it full in the face.

    Stuff happens, and the victim ran out of good luck. That's about it.

  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    What I meant was that I would never be/put myself in the totality of that situation.
    1. Fifty years old with no SD training.
    2. Walking home at 2:30 in the morning.
    3. -30*
    4. No weapon, other than a 2-3" knife.

    It is not one thing, it is the totality of all of them that creates a position that I would not put myself in.
    I would have no problem walking home at 2:30am if necessary for some reason. After working 4-5 riots and hundreds and hundreds of felony arrests, I am not afraid of the boogie man, but I would be carrying more than a 2-3" knife, in addition to my experience and training.
    now we're talking...thanks...but he was in that situation...think of something he could do better?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Regarding number 4--- OP posts from Iowa which still is not a shall issue state. It will be soon. The fellow walking did not have a legal option to carry a firearm; or the option to keep it with him at work.

    He did about as good as he could under lousy circumstance. Four on one, getting "cold cocked," an encounter with known bad guys who carry sawed offs.

    I'd say he is lucky as can be to be still be around this earth. Moreover, even if armed with a handgun, it could have gone South for him with 4 on one and a shotgun being in the mix. There's no guarantee he wouldn't have taken it full in the face.

    Stuff happens, and the victim ran out of good luck. That's about it.
    i disagree and think he should have been on the move away from them as soon as his hackles went up....waiting to see if anything was going to happen was the mistake...all out avoidance to be on the safe side is the only preventative he had the opportunity to utilize...make tracks and noise to wake the dead...these guys didnt want attention and they proved that when they hauled butt after the samaritan arrived on scene....you start pounding on doors and yelling fire in the middle of the night youre gonna generate attention....

    the fact that he survived is a bonus but doesnt mean he did anything right...it means he was lucky and thankfully there was a samaritan there to help...by the grace of whatever he was spared and more power to him for it...

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Make like a rabbit befor they get too close. I would take a quick look to make sure it is not a unit (cop car), no way to tell if it is a "slick" (unmarked car) in the dark.

    Direction and path (over fences, etc) would depend on perception at the time. Odds are bad, weapons nil, depart.

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