State of Mind Shootings - Page 2

State of Mind Shootings

This is a discussion on State of Mind Shootings within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; He is dressed in levis and a tee shirt and has no visible weapon. Based on this no I would not fire and I would ...

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Thread: State of Mind Shootings

  1. #16
    VIP Member
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    He is dressed in levis and a tee shirt and has no visible weapon.

    Based on this no I would not fire and I would not follow him inside his own residence. Render first aid to the child and call 911. He is not an immediate threat to me at that moment no matter what he has done or states he will do.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    He is dressed in levis and a tee shirt and has no visible weapon.

    Based on this no I would not fire and I would not follow him inside his own residence. Render first aid to the child and call 911. He is not an immediate threat to me at that moment no matter what he has done or states he will do.
    Very good point and one that would be critical in court I'm sure. I think a jury would decide on the side of the shooter...IF there was a witness to his statement. Without that (which wasnt included in scenario)....you're right....it would be tough to *prove* reasonable. It really would depend on how the jury viewed it.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #18
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    I have said this before in scenarios like this. As far as anyone knows he is going inside to drop to his knees and beg forgiveness or call 911 himself.
    The threat will be viewed right at that moment, other factors will come into play but unless the threat is immediate and real at that moment you would not be justified.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #19
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    Would a better option be to leave the injured child (hopefully only momentarily) and follow the 'father' into the house to verify?

    Also consider, then you are trespassing in his "Castle." And he may have a gun near at hand.

    Really a tough one.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #20
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    Following you have now pushed a bad situation. You are on his ground, he went in the house apparently unarmed? and now he reaches for a weapon. You could be viewed as the cowboy or cowgirl who was just waiting for the chance to shoot someone.
    You now may also have to deal with dear old mom who even though he has just apparently shot one of her own children may in fact come to the aid of dear old dad.
    Lots to think about.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #21
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    I think the law is for present time lethal violence against another for you to be shoot or take any other lethal defensive action available. The kid shot already is police business, it happened - or something happened that you didn't observe; what the father says he is going to do is also not a present lethal attack, it's the threat of one. I'd call 911 first - and then, if you go in the house because of the threat the father made and due to what the first victim said - and you see the man taking out and pointing his weapon at the boy, then you might be able to shoot - if that's what was actually happening.

    You did what you should have by contacting police, before they arrive a second child will be shot RIGHT NOW in front of you. I believe that would fulfill the law about Defense of Another. If it was clear to me a death would occur and I had the only opportunity to stop it in time, I think I would do it.

  7. #22
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    Might be better to move child to cover (and yourself) and try to verbally distract or engage him in hopes 911 responders arrive quickly. Your weapon ready if he returns armed, of course.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    After viewing the public restroom thread I thought I would post a scenario on what is often referred to a "state of mind" shootings. They can be justified shootings.

    They can vary from the common SD situations, in that they may rely more on the totality of the circumstances than if a weapon is presented or seen, and seemed to be a good subject discussion.

    To properly set the stage, you live in a place where defense of others under aparent threat of life or GBI is justified. Okay, here we go.

    You hear a comotion outside your house and go outside to see what is going on. You just got home and are still wearing your edc concealed weapon. You observe one of the next door neighbor's children, about ten years old, staggering on the front lawn of his house. You run over to him and observe what appears to be a gunshot wound in his stomach area. He says, "My dad shot me." He then falls to the ground.

    You observe the father on the front porch about twenty feet away. He is dressed in levis and a tee shirt and has no visible weapon. He yells, "That's one of my cheating wife's kids. I'm going to go in and shoot another one and throw him out." He turns to go back in the house. He is too far away for you to reach him befor he reenters the house and locks the door.

    Would you shoot him in the back? Why or why not? Would you consider it a justified shooting?

    While laws vary in different locations, lets confine the discussion to what is put forth in the scenario to keep it manageable.

    " You hear a comotion outside your house and go outside to see what is going on. You just got home and are still wearing your edc concealed weapon. You observe one of the next door neighbor's children, about ten years old, staggering on the front lawn of his house. You run over to him and observe what appears to be a gunshot wound in his stomach area. He says, "My dad shot me." He then falls to the ground "

    Call 911
    **********

    I don't every want to shoot someone in the back...

    I only want to use my weapon in defense of me and/or my family, coming to the defense of others (personal Lives) leaves too many UNKNOWNS.

    Its not to say i would never come to the defense of others, we can always set/create a scenario to justify our actions, but as a rule in todays world your best weapon is your cell phone and the numbers 9-1-1.

    Your weapon is your last choice of action when no other options are left or available.

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    the guy is unarmed...this does complicate things a bit...i'm gonna throw this out there...

    the kid is shot...who shot him?...he said "my father"...and youve got the neighbor saying "hes one of my cheating wifes kids"...so does that mean the father is somebody else and he just shot the kid and might have taken his own life for all you know?...just think...

    you dont know the whole story...but youve got an unarmed guy outside making threats that might not make a whole lot of sense...hard to imagine him following the kid outside and not still being armed if hes deranged enough to shoot the kid and who knows who else...

    you need 911 on the way before anything happens cause in another few seconds you might be on the ground fighting for your life...cause shoot or not there is no guarentee your shot is gonna stop him in his tracks...and there are gonna be a lot of questions to be answered...

    the kid needs help and the inside of the house is a potential war zone...i'm gonna withold chasing this guy down or firing a shot until i know more...

    yeah i know...my hesitation might cost more lives...my rush might also...including my own...without being there this is a real tough call...i would probably make some very loud verbal commands and look for reaction from dad....then work off of whatever i can take in from there on out...and the kid needs assistance now...if i can save one i might be better off than losing em all...

  10. #25
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    +1 Retsupt

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    If I had been outside, I would give aid to the wounded child. If I'm outside, then I am armed and have my cell phone. Therefore, the kid gets some 'one on one' from me, I watch for the father/shooters possible return, and I call 911...cops are trained for this sort of thing.
    I'm not shooting the neighbor without full knowledge of the situation.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Render first aid, stay prepared to protect kid from further harm, call 911 for ambulance and police.

    Easy in hindsight, but not on spur of the moment as our instincts tend to be toward going after the apparent shooter. That's why these scenarios are so helpful to us all. We get to learn.


    Still, with just a tad of reflection, the higher duty is to take care of the kid; maybe mom will take care of herself. For all we know she'll let dad have it with a shotty or a meat cleaver. Mom's don't tend to be quiet and kind toward people who just shot their kids. Man going into the house is in bigger trouble than he realizes from one certainly enraged mom.

    Ret--you get best of thread from me on this one.

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