My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate

This is a discussion on My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; [QUOTE=Jcabin;1650270]The majority of states don't have laws against consuming and carrying. There is empirical evidence over several decades now that the lawful, gun carrying citizens ...

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Thread: My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate

  1. #151
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jcabin;1650270]The majority of states don't have laws against consuming and carrying. There is empirical evidence over several decades now that the lawful, gun carrying citizens ARE making the right decisions in regards to self defense.[/QUOTE

    I respectfully disagree with this statement my friend. I have pointed out that carrying weapon has just started to become popular in the last 15 years (really popular) that is. So empirical evidence over several decades might be factual, but only to the point of the small percentage of those carrying. As I pointed out, deaths by DUI/DWI didn't get to 20,000+ overnight either, it took decades to reach that number.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    It's the internet, what do you expect. Half the people on here wouldn't even have the balls to voice their opinion face to face, even if it wasn't offensive. Once they get online, they are a million miles away from the person they want to argue with, even if the guy lives in the apartment above him, they have no idea.
    I agree, that's why my city and my job are listed and have always been listed, I make no bones about, I disrespect no one and hope for the same.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  4. #153
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    I respectfully disagree with this statement my friend. I have pointed out that carrying weapon has just started to become popular in the last 15 years (really popular) that is. So empirical evidence over several decades might be factual, but only to the point of the small percentage of those carrying. As I pointed out, deaths by DUI/DWI didn't get to 20,000+ overnight either, it took decades to reach that number.
    I'll have to disagree. DUI/fatalities were higher 50 years ago than they are today. The number has come down. However, guns have always been relatively affordable. Simply adjust the money from then to now.

    I think 20 years of people carrying and consuming alcohol, and not screwing up, says something. If it was as bad as everyone claims it actually is, it would be banned in every state, even the most freedom respecting ones. The reality is, it's a non-issue. The people carrying are overwhelmingly responsible.

  5. #154
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    Nobody is arguing that impairment doesn't occur. Just that the right to self defense doesn't dissipate with every beer you finish. However, responsibility does. Therefore one should know his limits and act accordingly.
    Agreed. My stance is if you know you are carrying, try and no OVERDO the drinking.
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  6. #155
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    The right to self defense does not dissipate with every beer you finish, but your ability does. Hopefully everyone uses common sense and stops before you reach that level of intoxication.
    This is a disscussion that will always have strong proponents on both sides and I dont think anything said here will change anyones mind.
    9MMare you have reached your limit and are cut off, you now have to rely on your fluid shock wave moves to defend yourself.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    I'll have to disagree. DUI/fatalities were higher 50 years ago than they are today. The number has come down. However, guns have always been relatively affordable. Simply adjust the money from then to now.

    I think 20 years of people carrying and consuming alcohol, and not screwing up, says something. If it was as bad as everyone claims it actually is, it would be banned in every state, even the most freedom respecting ones. The reality is, it's a non-issue. The people carrying are overwhelmingly responsible.
    This right here though pretty much disproves the theory that we cannot disagree without a urinatiion contest though LOL, we've had a logical debate, how can some not see that, oh well. Thanks Jcabin for a well thought out conversation on the subject. We will just agree to disagree and I'm happy with that because at least we agree on the major subject that we both support our right to carry our weapons, everything else can be worked on.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  8. #157
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    To put a different angle on the this topic I started a thread in the reloading section. The responses are revealing. Most posters absolutely will not have anything to do with alcohol while reloading.

    Does carrying after drinking (notice I didn't say drunk) require any less of a level of responsibility?

  9. #158
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Strangely enough the legal limit to drive in CT is .08 while the legal limit to carry is 0.10....
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  10. #159
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    You don't drink while driving a lethal weapon - known as a car - and you don't drink while having a lethal weapon on your hip. Lethal big or little machines don't mix well with alcohol or any mind or mood altering drug or drug that interferes with normal motor skills.

    It's self-evident.

    You don't have a right to go around endangering other people because of any abstraction about "principles", "rights", or any number of examples when the behavior wasn't harmful - because it IS and causes mayhem frequently.

  11. #160
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    You don't have a right to go around endangering other people because of any abstraction about "principles", "rights", or any number of examples when the behavior wasn't harmful - because it IS and causes mayhem frequently.
    Oh really?

    NRA-ILA :: Gov. Bredesen?s Veto of Restaurant Carry Again Overridden by State Legislature

    Friday, June 04, 2010


    Fairfax, Va. – In a strong reaffirmation of the fundamental right of self-defense, the Tennessee House and Senate have successfully overridden Governor Phil Bredesen’s veto of Senate Bill 3012. This NRA-supported bill will enable law-abiding right-to-carry permit holders to carry firearms for self-defense in establishments where alcohol is served, as long as they do not consume alcohol or are not otherwise prohibited by posting provisions. SB 3012 passed both the House and Senate with broad bipartisan support, but Gov. Bredesen vetoed the bill on May 18, disappointing more than 250,000 right-to-carry permit holders in his state. While an override of the veto only needed a simple majority vote to pass, it cleared both chambers with overwhelming, bipartisan support. This measure was overridden in the Senate by a margin of 22-10 and in the House by a margin of 61-30.



    “Until today, Tennessee law has prevented right-to-carry permit holders from having the chance to defend themselves from criminal attack while in a restaurant,” said Chris W. Cox, NRA chief lobbyist. "It’s a shame that Governor Bredesen has so little faith in his fellow Tennesseans to behave responsibly, but this veto override proves that the majority of Tennessee legislators do trust permit holders. They understand this is a common-sense measure that must become law in their state, just as it is already law in 32 other states.”



    Not one of the 32 states that allow permit holders to carry in establishments that serve alcohol has repealed this law. That’s because these laws have proven to be effective and permit holders have proven to be trustworthy. This type of legislation is crucial because crime can occur anywhere, including in restaurants. On April 2, 2009, a Tennessee man was gunned down at a sports bar in Nashville by a criminal stalking his wife. Although she was a right-to-carry permit holder, she was forced to helplessly watch this tragedy unfold, because Tennessee law required her to leave her gun locked in the car outside.



    A bill similar to SB 3012 passed the Tennessee House and Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support in May 2009, only to be vetoed by Gov. Bredesen. Despite a successful veto override by Tennessee’s state legislature, the enacted law was ruled unconstitutionally vague because of a perceived ambiguity over the state’s definition of restaurants. SB 3012, filed in response to that court ruling last November, fixed any possible ambiguity.



    “We would like to thank State Sen. Doug Jackson (D-25), State Rep. Curry Todd (R-95) and Lt. Governor Ron Ramsey for their leadership and commitment to this effort” concluded Cox.




    This law will go into effect upon being assigned a public chapter number by the Tennessee Secretary of State.

  12. #161
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    Oh really?

    NRA-ILA :: Gov. Bredesen?s Veto of Restaurant Carry Again Overridden by State Legislature

    Friday, June 04, 2010


    Fairfax, Va. – In a strong reaffirmation of the fundamental right of self-defense, the Tennessee House and Senate have successfully overridden Governor Phil Bredesen’s veto of Senate Bill 3012. This NRA-supported bill will enable law-abiding right-to-carry permit holders to carry firearms for self-defense in establishments where alcohol is served, as long as they do not consume alcohol or are not otherwise prohibited by posting provisions. SB 3012 passed both the House and Senate with broad bipartisan support, but Gov. Bredesen vetoed the bill on May 18, disappointing more than 250,000 right-to-carry permit holders in his state. While an override of the veto only needed a simple majority vote to pass, it cleared both chambers with overwhelming, bipartisan support. This measure was overridden in the Senate by a margin of 22-10 and in the House by a margin of 61-30.



    “Until today, Tennessee law has prevented right-to-carry permit holders from having the chance to defend themselves from criminal attack while in a restaurant,” said Chris W. Cox, NRA chief lobbyist. "It’s a shame that Governor Bredesen has so little faith in his fellow Tennesseans to behave responsibly, but this veto override proves that the majority of Tennessee legislators do trust permit holders. They understand this is a common-sense measure that must become law in their state, just as it is already law in 32 other states.”



    Not one of the 32 states that allow permit holders to carry in establishments that serve alcohol has repealed this law. That’s because these laws have proven to be effective and permit holders have proven to be trustworthy. This type of legislation is crucial because crime can occur anywhere, including in restaurants. On April 2, 2009, a Tennessee man was gunned down at a sports bar in Nashville by a criminal stalking his wife. Although she was a right-to-carry permit holder, she was forced to helplessly watch this tragedy unfold, because Tennessee law required her to leave her gun locked in the car outside.



    A bill similar to SB 3012 passed the Tennessee House and Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support in May 2009, only to be vetoed by Gov. Bredesen. Despite a successful veto override by Tennessee’s state legislature, the enacted law was ruled unconstitutionally vague because of a perceived ambiguity over the state’s definition of restaurants. SB 3012, filed in response to that court ruling last November, fixed any possible ambiguity.



    “We would like to thank State Sen. Doug Jackson (D-25), State Rep. Curry Todd (R-95) and Lt. Governor Ron Ramsey for their leadership and commitment to this effort” concluded Cox.




    This law will go into effect upon being assigned a public chapter number by the Tennessee Secretary of State.
    Ummm your post also says THEY CANNOT CONSUME ALCOHOL.
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  13. #162
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Ummm your post also says THEY CANNOT CONSUME ALCOHOL.
    It's not my post. I linked an article, and the article is about TN. In TN they can't consume alcohol. In many of those 32 states you can consume alcohol. As the article states, the people have proven they are trustworthy. These states have not repealed that status.

  14. #163
    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    I didnt want to start a whole new thread, but wanted to mention something. Yesterday was the Armys 235th birthday. Aside from the normal surf and turf and cake we got to have beer. 2 beers for anyone who was 21. We all had weapons as well. There was no sudden ADs or shootouts or blood in the streets. As I sat and drank my two beers I found it funny that I could legally drink with a weapon in Iraq, but not at home........On the flip side of that I find it interesting that I shoot more at home (at the range) than I do here.
    Please take my posts with a grain of salt. I am frequently sleep deprived and always just on this side of "Krazy".

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  15. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    There is another article that confirms she had been out at the bar, drinking etc, no BAC listed but she probably wasn't intoxicated. But this poor girl was at the mercy of her attacker and this happens all too often, many people on and off this forum's opinions previously stated in other threads / conversations would have this girl unarmed simply because she was going out drinking and hanging out with friends.
    Yup. Denial of the ability to effectively defend against violent attacks, all because of fears some folks have over the relatively rare what-ifs. It's absurd to essentially commit such disarmed victims to death because of such ludicrous, feel-good legislation. It simply paves the way for criminals to succeed, while destroying upstanding families along the way. Nothing more.

    Thankfully, Oregon thinks straight on this issue. Citizens are trusted to be honorable and responsible. When they aren't, existing laws take care of the situation. All the while, good people continue to remain armed no matter where they go. Kudos, Oregon citizens for forcing the hand of the temporarily-elected hacks so they don't do so much damage while they occupy the seat of power. Kudos.
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  16. #165
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    3 Huge reasons I don't drink. (without having to give it much thought)


    1. I'm a parent.

    2. I carry a concealed weapon.

    3. I'm a Paramedic.

    All of these require that I have 100% of my mental ability and judgment available to me. One or two drinks is plenty to reduce this percentage below 100.

    1. Even if my kids are at a babysitter, I won't go drinking because if they end up in the ER for some reason, I need to be there for my kids to give them support and maybe to decide on what procedures will be allowed by the hospital staff. I need to be 100% sober 24/7 because doing so is more important than my own desire to get high on drugs.

    2. Carrying a weapon requires that I have as clear a mind as possible, for several obvious reasons. Also, if I get detained by the police following a shooting, they will find the alcohol in my blood and no matter how small it is, it will not look good in court.

    3. If I come across someone that needs help when I am off duty, I need to think clearly to help that person.

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