My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate

This is a discussion on My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Excellent point, DaveJay ....

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Thread: My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate

  1. #31
    Member Array Griffworks's Avatar
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    Excellent point, DaveJay.
    Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #12-751

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  3. #32
    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griffworks View Post
    Excellent point, DaveJay.
    wasnt that a full automatic spoon that made ROD fat?
    Last edited by 1980Maico440; June 3rd, 2010 at 04:11 PM. Reason: bad speeler

    I won't stop racing when I get old, I will get old when I stop racing

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  4. #33
    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    So this discussion derailed pretty hard. I wasn't asking if you carry or not or if you agree with it or not or the semantics of the constitution. I was trying to find someones valid reasoning in the context I illustrated that the woman should not been allowed to defend herself.

    Also I illustrated that the argument of "drinking and driving is the same as carrying and drinking" as a moot point and somehow no one has been able to address that.

    So this leads me to believe that my arguements aren't arguments at all due to no one directly disagreeing or providing examples against my statements.....

  5. #34
    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    Woman Found Dead in NoLibs Lot Identified | NBC Philadelphia

    There is another article that confirms she had been out at the bar, drinking etc, no BAC listed but she probably wasn't intoxicated. But this poor girl was at the mercy of her attacker and this happens all too often, many people on and off this forum's opinions previously stated in other threads / conversations would have this girl unarmed simply because she was going out drinking and hanging out with friends. This disturbing outcome is all too common.

    This is why I carry regardless of going out to the bar or drinking with friends. I don't think simply because people like to partake in normal and sociable activities that they shouldn't be permitted to defend themselves.


    Just my opinion.

    EDIT: Also, let's say she was armed and successfully defended herself, do you think a legal system would crucify her because her "judgment was impaired"? I hear this argument far too often, my opinion, if you're "impaired" or not, assault / rape / muggings are just as violent and tragic as if you weren't "impaired" and you should have the right to defend yourself regardless.
    I defer to your edit in that self protection is a God given right. Of course your right in court may be to explain why.

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  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benthic View Post
    Just because you don't like my argument, doesn't make it any less valid. We all like to jump up and down about the rights we have that are protected by the Second Amendment. This is one of those cases where we have to remember that it cuts both ways.

    Brian
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveJay View Post
    A well regulated militia implies that some rules, regulations, are necessary and good...

    Just as anti 2A folks try to take the first part and twist it to mean something it aint...I feel some pro-2A people take that first part and try to completely disregard it...

    Obviously, the Founding Fathers were in favor of private ownership of firearms...but they also were, IMHO, in favor of some regulation of that ownership...otherwise, we would not see those opening words of "A well regulated militia"

    hows that work for the whole validation thing bethic?..."it cuts both ways"...

  7. #36
    Member Array MSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    So this discussion derailed pretty hard. I wasn't asking if you carry or not or if you agree with it or not or the semantics of the constitution. I was trying to find someones valid reasoning in the context I illustrated that the woman should not been allowed to defend herself.

    Also I illustrated that the argument of "drinking and driving is the same as carrying and drinking" as a moot point and somehow no one has been able to address that.

    So this leads me to believe that my arguements aren't arguments at all due to no one directly disagreeing or providing examples against my statements.....
    This is why I carry regardless of going out to the bar or drinking with friends. I don't think simply because people like to partake in normal and sociable activities that they shouldn't be permitted to defend themselves.
    I don't think anyone is saying you don't have the right to defend yourself. But here's the issue: At some point your right to defend yourself from a perceived threat, and everyone else's right to not be shot by you when you fire on that threat cross.
    It's one thing if you do it sober. It's another if you've been drinking.
    You also imply, that you carrying a gun is the only means of defending your self. I think you have a responsibility to evaluate your risk, and mitigate it to your level of comfort in a way that doesn't unnecessarily increase everyone elses. In my opinion, there are other ways to do that than carrying and drinking. e.g. If you know you plan to drink with friends, do it in a group where you know a few will be carrying and not drinking. Travel to and from as a group. Hind sight being 20/20, this girl should have slept it off on her friend's couch instead of making the trip home in the dark, alone.
    My point is, there are allot of ways to mitigate risk. IMO adding alcohol to carrying does the opposite.
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  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSteve View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying you don't have the right to defend yourself. But here's the issue: At some point your right to defend yourself from a perceived threat, and everyone else's right to not be shot by you when you fire on that threat cross.
    It's one thing if you do it sober. It's another if you've been drinking.
    You also imply, that you carrying a gun is the only means of defending your self. I think you have a responsibility to evaluate your risk, and mitigate it to your level of comfort in a way that doesn't unnecessarily increase everyone elses. In my opinion, there are other ways to do that than carrying and drinking. e.g. If you know you plan to drink with friends, do it in a group where you know a few will be carrying and not drinking. Travel to and from as a group. Hind sight being 20/20, this girl should have slept it off on her friend's couch instead of making the trip home in the dark, alone.
    My point is, there are allot of ways to mitigate risk. IMO adding alcohol to carrying does the opposite.
    bolded...excellent point...has been debated here many times...its a theme in any discussion regarding self defense it seems...if you cant carry your gun you cannot defend yourself...guncentric and weak argument...

    if you drink more than you should you cant defend yourself effectively as you will be impaired...regardless of how good a drinker you are...

  9. #38
    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    bolded...excellent point...has been debated here many times...its a theme in any discussion regarding self defense it seems...if you cant carry your gun you cannot defend yourself...guncentric and weak argument...

    if you drink more than you should you cant defend yourself effectively as you will be impaired...regardless of how good a drinker you are...
    If you believe you can't competently defend yourself without a gun in a worst case acenerio then I applaud you. I'm 5'8" 175 pounds and my credentials in martial arts aren't important but let categorize me as healthy, in shape, and have above average self defense knowledge. How do you think I faired against three 6'+ 200+ lbs men from jumping and mugging me? Guess what not so well. To imply that my arguement is guncentric is counter productive to the idea of carrying a gun in the first place. I carry (and I know most people carry) as there last line of defense in an encounter. First lines being avoidance, non lethal situational based defense, and then more lethal means all based within the context of the situation.

    In this girls case obviously what she had on her and her own knowledge was not enough to save her life. Maybe if she had OC or something similar she could have gotten away, maybe if she had both OC and a gun the OC may have proven ineffective and a gun may have been necessary to save her life.

    BGs don't politely inform you when, where, or how they are going to attack you believe it or not, and suggesting that someone should have to alter there lifestyle based on fear is not the kind of America I was raised in.

  10. #39
    Member Array romansten9's Avatar
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    The following is common sense (which is probably why the government can't "get it") It is possible to be in a car and not be driving. It is possible to be in a bar and not be drinking. However, where I live it is illegal to carry in places that serve alcohol (including most "sit down" restaurants) I don't drink and I don't waste my time or money in bars (sorry to those of you that do) but I sure would like to be allowed to carry in restaurants.

  11. #40
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    What about if your AT HOME, minding your own business, having some alcoholic beverages, and some thugs decide that today is the day they B and E your house. Gonna sit there and give them carte blanche, dial 911 and sit back and hope for the best?
    I didn't think so. All you naysayers are gonna grab your firearms and stop the knuckledraggers, aren't you?
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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    There is a difference between operating and maintaining, just because I have my car keys doesn't mean I'm going to get in my vehicle and drive drunk, you can't get arrested for drinking and carrying your keys.

    The same IMO goes for carrying my firearm, I'm carrying it, not operating it. But if my life depended on it I would operate my firearm. Same goes for driving, I'm sorry but even if I have three or four beers in me, if my life is in serious and imminent danger I am getting in that car and driving to the nearest police station. And I would bet that all of you would do the same thing.

    I can't imagine someone saying, "this guy is coming at me with a knife and I need to get away asap....but I did have three beers so I shouldn't drive...."
    Looks to me like you made my point for me.
    If you have your keys in your pocket, yea, you may not be driving right at that exact moment but if you thought you might have to jump in your car at a moments notice and haul a#$ someplace or die, would you still be sitting there drinking or would you want to remain sharp and alert?
    There's a reason bars and nightclubs employ bouncers....people get stupid when they drink and you don't even have to be the stupid one to get drawn into some drunks idea of having fun, you just need to be there and do something as simple as making eye contact.

  13. #42
    Member Array Agent47's Avatar
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    alcohol tastes like the love child of vomit and mouthwash and even if they mixed fruit juice or even milk with alcohol I can still taste it, FTS.
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  14. #43
    Member Array Benthic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    First of all I can't believe that I'm agreeing with bladenbullet on anything, but I am.

    Second of all I have to ask. How much did you have to drink to make you think that post was wise?
    I've had nothing to drink today. I've also neither admitted to, nor encouraged the breaking of any law. So while my post and my opinion may be objectionable to some, I don't see where it was unwise.

    Brian

  15. #44
    Member Array Benthic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    hows that work for the whole validation thing bethic?..."it cuts both ways"...
    The phrase "A well regulated militia" suggests that it is the militia that needs regulation, discipline and order, not "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." To put it another way, that many in the gun culture are fond of saying, "What part of 'shall not be infringed' don't you understand?"

    For the record, I'm not suggesting you don't understand. Clearly you have your opinion, I have mine, and they are diametrically opposing viewpoints. We could argue this all day, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Brian

  16. #45
    Member Array TangoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    The same IMO goes for carrying my firearm, I'm carrying it, not operating it. But if my life depended on it I would operate my firearm. Same goes for driving, I'm sorry but even if I have three or four beers in me, if my life is in serious and imminent danger I am getting in that car and driving to the nearest police station. And I would bet that all of you would do the same thing. "
    And by doing so, you are putting everyone on the road in imminent danger. You get in that car and you drive drunk... head on into a family of four, and they died. Good job. Firearms are tools. They can be used for protection, or they can be used to hurt people. It depends on the operator. They are dangerous, and for the most part a healthy respect for them mitigates that danger. If you are drinking you have no business behind the wheel or holding a firearm.

    Here is an idea. If you are drinking, have a DD. Better than that have an ARMED DD.

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