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My response to the "alcohol and guns" debate

10K views 164 replies 45 participants last post by  romansten9 
#1 ·
Woman Found Dead in NoLibs Lot Identified | NBC Philadelphia

There is another article that confirms she had been out at the bar, drinking etc, no BAC listed but she probably wasn't intoxicated. But this poor girl was at the mercy of her attacker and this happens all too often, many people on and off this forum's opinions previously stated in other threads / conversations would have this girl unarmed simply because she was going out drinking and hanging out with friends. This disturbing outcome is all too common.

This is why I carry regardless of going out to the bar or drinking with friends. I don't think simply because people like to partake in normal and sociable activities that they shouldn't be permitted to defend themselves.


Just my opinion.

EDIT: Also, let's say she was armed and successfully defended herself, do you think a legal system would crucify her because her "judgment was impaired"? I hear this argument far too often, my opinion, if you're "impaired" or not, assault / rape / muggings are just as violent and tragic as if you weren't "impaired" and you should have the right to defend yourself regardless.
 
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#131 ·
Also, there is a certain hypocrisy here (not to members here personally, but culturally).

THe implication seems to be that driving is so important that we allow you to drink and drive...up to a point. Realistically, if driving wasnt 'so important' in American culture (& because of certain transportation drawbacks).....we would not allow anyone driving to drink, period.

Which implies that anyone in a bar should not walk out and drive. Unless they are officially a designated driver. The alc. percent used by the courts is pretty arbitrary....some people can drink more and not be 'impaired.' And others cant even drink that much and will be 'impaired'.

And also, as this thread points out....who defines 'impaired?'

But because guns arent as culturally accepted and much of society do not see them as necessities like cars, the laws concerning guns are much stricter.

It's hypocritical IMO. Just because we find guns so intrinsically wrapped up in our lives and cant do without them....we make some arbitrary laws to 'control' drinking and driving. And "impaired" drivers kill many more people every yr than law-abiding gun owners.

Much of Europe has zero tolerance for drinking and driving, period.

So we cant really compare driving and drinking with carrying and drinking laws because society looks at both very (& IMO hypocritically) differently.
 
#135 ·
Most states set a BAC limit at which you can still legally drive.
Many states also say something about intoxication and guns.

I am not trying to ban alcohol, guns or cars. I am not bible thumping or saying this is how it will be. I make my decisions that affect my life and you decide for yours.

Sometimes other factors determine how we stand on certain things... At my job a single DUI will result in immediate termination. Therefore I do not drink if I plan to drive. Nor will I drink when I am on call. I just won't chance it.

When I am carrying concealed out in public I will avoid alcohol for the main reason that I don't want to let my situational awareness suffer. I want to keep tabs on whats what, who is where and what is going on at all times. Another reason is Ohio law denies carry in bars and restraints that serve alcohol.

At home when I clean guns, reload, gun maintenance, and practice I do not drink a drop of alcohol. I will put my gun in the safe before I start drinking. This isn't to say I couldn't get it out in the event I need it after I drank but that isn't the point.

Bottom line is I will sometimes go out of my way to keep alcohol and guns separate. This is because of personal reasons. :bier:
 
#147 ·
i didnt think it got as nearly out of hand as it could have and both sides have their good points...its not an argument to be won...its a discussion that will always have very strong sides to it...

i dont see where it wasnt a good discussion...it could have been alcohol and ice skating and it wouldnt have been much different...
 
#148 ·
Agreed. I don't see where this got out of hand. I think alot of forum users have poor reading comprehension and confuse debate with bickering. Or simply the amount of apathy they abide by doesn't let them see some things are worth discussing. Intellectual discussion is hard for alot of people.
 
#155 ·
The right to self defense does not dissipate with every beer you finish, but your ability does. Hopefully everyone uses common sense and stops before you reach that level of intoxication.
This is a disscussion that will always have strong proponents on both sides and I dont think anything said here will change anyones mind.
9MMare you have reached your limit and are cut off, you now have to rely on your fluid shock wave moves to defend yourself.
 
#157 ·
To put a different angle on the this topic I started a thread in the reloading section. The responses are revealing. Most posters absolutely will not have anything to do with alcohol while reloading.

Does carrying after drinking (notice I didn't say drunk) require any less of a level of responsibility?
 
#159 ·
You don't drink while driving a lethal weapon - known as a car - and you don't drink while having a lethal weapon on your hip. Lethal big or little machines don't mix well with alcohol or any mind or mood altering drug or drug that interferes with normal motor skills.

It's self-evident.

You don't have a right to go around endangering other people because of any abstraction about "principles", "rights", or any number of examples when the behavior wasn't harmful - because it IS and causes mayhem frequently.
 
#160 ·
You don't have a right to go around endangering other people because of any abstraction about "principles", "rights", or any number of examples when the behavior wasn't harmful - because it IS and causes mayhem frequently.
Oh really?

NRA-ILA :: Gov. Bredesen?s Veto of Restaurant Carry Again Overridden by State Legislature

Friday, June 04, 2010


Fairfax, Va. – In a strong reaffirmation of the fundamental right of self-defense, the Tennessee House and Senate have successfully overridden Governor Phil Bredesen’s veto of Senate Bill 3012. This NRA-supported bill will enable law-abiding right-to-carry permit holders to carry firearms for self-defense in establishments where alcohol is served, as long as they do not consume alcohol or are not otherwise prohibited by posting provisions. SB 3012 passed both the House and Senate with broad bipartisan support, but Gov. Bredesen vetoed the bill on May 18, disappointing more than 250,000 right-to-carry permit holders in his state. While an override of the veto only needed a simple majority vote to pass, it cleared both chambers with overwhelming, bipartisan support. This measure was overridden in the Senate by a margin of 22-10 and in the House by a margin of 61-30.



“Until today, Tennessee law has prevented right-to-carry permit holders from having the chance to defend themselves from criminal attack while in a restaurant,” said Chris W. Cox, NRA chief lobbyist. "It’s a shame that Governor Bredesen has so little faith in his fellow Tennesseans to behave responsibly, but this veto override proves that the majority of Tennessee legislators do trust permit holders. They understand this is a common-sense measure that must become law in their state, just as it is already law in 32 other states.”



Not one of the 32 states that allow permit holders to carry in establishments that serve alcohol has repealed this law. That’s because these laws have proven to be effective and permit holders have proven to be trustworthy. This type of legislation is crucial because crime can occur anywhere, including in restaurants. On April 2, 2009, a Tennessee man was gunned down at a sports bar in Nashville by a criminal stalking his wife. Although she was a right-to-carry permit holder, she was forced to helplessly watch this tragedy unfold, because Tennessee law required her to leave her gun locked in the car outside.



A bill similar to SB 3012 passed the Tennessee House and Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support in May 2009, only to be vetoed by Gov. Bredesen. Despite a successful veto override by Tennessee’s state legislature, the enacted law was ruled unconstitutionally vague because of a perceived ambiguity over the state’s definition of restaurants. SB 3012, filed in response to that court ruling last November, fixed any possible ambiguity.



“We would like to thank State Sen. Doug Jackson (D-25), State Rep. Curry Todd (R-95) and Lt. Governor Ron Ramsey for their leadership and commitment to this effort” concluded Cox.




This law will go into effect upon being assigned a public chapter number by the Tennessee Secretary of State.
 
#163 ·
I didnt want to start a whole new thread, but wanted to mention something. Yesterday was the Armys 235th birthday. Aside from the normal surf and turf and cake we got to have beer. 2 beers for anyone who was 21. We all had weapons as well. There was no sudden ADs or shootouts or blood in the streets. As I sat and drank my two beers I found it funny that I could legally drink with a weapon in Iraq, but not at home........On the flip side of that I find it interesting that I shoot more at home (at the range) than I do here.
 
#164 ·
There is another article that confirms she had been out at the bar, drinking etc, no BAC listed but she probably wasn't intoxicated. But this poor girl was at the mercy of her attacker and this happens all too often, many people on and off this forum's opinions previously stated in other threads / conversations would have this girl unarmed simply because she was going out drinking and hanging out with friends.
Yup. Denial of the ability to effectively defend against violent attacks, all because of fears some folks have over the relatively rare what-ifs. It's absurd to essentially commit such disarmed victims to death because of such ludicrous, feel-good legislation. It simply paves the way for criminals to succeed, while destroying upstanding families along the way. Nothing more.

Thankfully, Oregon thinks straight on this issue. Citizens are trusted to be honorable and responsible. When they aren't, existing laws take care of the situation. All the while, good people continue to remain armed no matter where they go. Kudos, Oregon citizens for forcing the hand of the temporarily-elected hacks so they don't do so much damage while they occupy the seat of power. Kudos. :congrats:
 
#165 ·
3 Huge reasons I don't drink. (without having to give it much thought)


1. I'm a parent.

2. I carry a concealed weapon.

3. I'm a Paramedic.

All of these require that I have 100% of my mental ability and judgment available to me. One or two drinks is plenty to reduce this percentage below 100.

1. Even if my kids are at a babysitter, I won't go drinking because if they end up in the ER for some reason, I need to be there for my kids to give them support and maybe to decide on what procedures will be allowed by the hospital staff. I need to be 100% sober 24/7 because doing so is more important than my own desire to get high on drugs.

2. Carrying a weapon requires that I have as clear a mind as possible, for several obvious reasons. Also, if I get detained by the police following a shooting, they will find the alcohol in my blood and no matter how small it is, it will not look good in court.

3. If I come across someone that needs help when I am off duty, I need to think clearly to help that person.
 
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