Really got me thinking....

This is a discussion on Really got me thinking.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This weekend my wife's sister and her teenage daughter came to visit. Saturday night we went out to a nice restaurant for dinner. We sat ...

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Thread: Really got me thinking....

  1. #1
    Member Array The Goose's Avatar
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    Really got me thinking....

    This weekend my wife's sister and her teenage daughter came to visit. Saturday night we went out to a nice restaurant for dinner. We sat ot a back corner booth and I reflexively asked if I could sit facing the door (without making reference to why). We had a great dinner and an otherwise uneventful evening.

    The next morning at breakfast we were all chatting and my sister in law made reference to having been mugged twice when she lived in NYC. She then went on to say that only one was a mugging and that the other one was with a group of friends in a Chinese restaurant in Queens. They were waiting for their food when three hooded armed men stormed in and robbed everyone in the place. They took wallets and jewelry and made everyone lay down on the floor then they fled. She then changed the subject and I did not inquire further.

    After they had left my wife brought up the subject. She asked what I would have done. She knew why I had wanted to sit facing the door at the restaurant the night before and she certainly knew I was carrying. So her question was what would I have done if something like that had happened on the night when we were out. Most specifically she voiced a concern that any action other then compliance could worsen the situation. After all no one had done anything in her sister's situation and everyone got out OK. She felt that if someone had pulled a gun that the whole thing could have turned into a bloodbath. A point not totally lacking in validity.

    So what would you have done. Crowded restaurant on a Saturday night. You are facing such that you have a good view of the entrance which is probably 50 - 60 feet away. You are seated in a high back, heavy wood booth. Three unarmed women are with you and you are armed. Thre hooded armed gunmen burst in and start robbing people. In general do you act? Just give them your wallet? Wait to see what happens? This one has really got me thinking.

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  3. #2
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    The reason I prefer to sit facing the entrance is because it gives me the opportunity to see trouble coming. If I saw three, armed men wearing hoods coming in the front, we would be going out the fire exit or through the kitchen or through a window if necessary.

    If I were caught unaware (perish the thought), I would probably hand over my wallet. While not beyond the realm of possibility, shooting everyone in a crowded restaurant as part of a robbery probably is not going to happen.

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    Member Array chiefs-special-guy's Avatar
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    THREE armed robbers?
    Well, not much one can do I think. Unless they start shooting, I would just hand over my money.
    This happened to an old professor of mine in a restaurant in Chicago- they led everyone into the bathroom, took them out 1 at a time and robbed them.
    God Bless
    Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6
    The reason I prefer to sit facing the entrance is because it gives me the opportunity to see trouble coming. If I saw three, armed men wearing hoods coming in the front, we would be going out the fire exit or through the kitchen or through a window if necessary.

    If I were caught unaware (perish the thought), I would probably hand over my wallet. While not beyond the realm of possibility, shooting everyone in a crowded restaurant as part of a robbery probably is not going to happen.
    I'd hand over my decoy wallet!
    Richard

    NRA Life Member

    "But if they don't exist, how can a man see them?"

    "You may think I'm pompous, but actually I'm pedantic... let me explain the difference."

    "Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

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    Hand over the wallet, and be prepared. odds are not in your favor, 3 to 1. Even if they are lousy shots and flee, chances are someone in the restaurant will catch some lead.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    This like all WWYD questions, leave a lot of factors out of the equation. Most of all is instinct, we all have the little voice inside our head that tells us what to do in a stress state. Sometimes it's wrong and gets us into trouble, but most times it's right. If that little voice tells me that I need to get up, draw and herd the ladies to the most protected corner I can. That's what I do. If my little voice tells me that I'm too far behind the power curve and I need to sit and wait. That's what I do. If it looks like Abu-Aihmgonnabombyou is comin through the door with 3 of his buddies, And I know the only chance of gettin' out alive is by throwin' lead at em'. That's what I do. It's impossible to decide how you should react to a situation untill you're in it. Too many variables to consider, In the end it usually comes down to instinct and luck.

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    Member Array TCB in TN's Avatar
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    Me too!

    Quote Originally Posted by blueyedevil
    This like all WWYD questions, leave a lot of factors out of the equation. Most of all is instinct, we all have the little voice inside our head that tells us what to do in a stress state. Sometimes it's wrong and gets us into trouble, but most times it's right. If that little voice tells me that I need to get up, draw and herd the ladies to the most protected corner I can. That's what I do. If my little voice tells me that I'm too far behind the power curve and I need to sit and wait. That's what I do. If it looks like Abu-Aihmgonnabombyou is comin through the door with 3 of his buddies, And I know the only chance of gettin' out alive is by throwin' lead at em'. That's what I do. It's impossible to decide how you should react to a situation untill you're in it. Too many variables to consider, In the end it usually comes down to instinct and luck.
    +1 could't say it any better.
    There are only 2 people I trust in this world and you ain't one of'em!

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Great!

    Quote Originally Posted by blueyedevil
    This like all WWYD questions, leave a lot of factors out of the equation. Most of all is instinct, we all have the little voice inside our head that tells us what to do in a stress state. Sometimes it's wrong and gets us into trouble, but most times it's right. If that little voice tells me that I need to get up, draw and herd the ladies to the most protected corner I can. That's what I do. If my little voice tells me that I'm too far behind the power curve and I need to sit and wait. That's what I do. If it looks like Abu-Aihmgonnabombyou is comin through the door with 3 of his buddies, And I know the only chance of gettin' out alive is by throwin' lead at em'. That's what I do. It's impossible to decide how you should react to a situation untill you're in it. Too many variables to consider, In the end it usually comes down to instinct and luck.
    By far the best response so far. Instincts are always important. And none of us can really sideline guess what we're going to do in the future in every scenario. All we can do is prepare and train and hope we perform as we train for.

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    Member Array kansas_shooter's Avatar
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    I think a lot of it would depend on how much cover is between me and the perps. Are the perps together ?? Are the perps already spread out ?? Can we get out, without being seen ?? Alot of resturants have emergency doors leading right out to the parking lot, can we make a mad dash for it, all the while not turning my back on the perps with a drawn weapon ?? How close are we to the bathroom or kitchen ?? Can I find some cover and place 3 COM shots ?? After you shoot one, the other two are going to be stunned and ready to be shot. This being said, I am not sure I would engage the perps and risk my financial future.

    Let me know if I am way off here. Like others said, too many questions.
    One shot. One kill.

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    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    Can cell phone locations be tracked routinely now by local Police departments?

    Perhaps discreetly dialing 911 on a cell phone and leaving it out of sight would be the best response in this case.
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I'd hand over my wallet and advise my wife and 3yr. old to remain calm and to comply with their requests for wallets & jewelry.
    Thos items don't matter and can be replaced while credit cards can be cancelled with a phone call.

    If it got hairier though with people being threatened to be shot, raped, etc. well then thats a different dynamic altogether and as such instinctual action would be taken toward survival by whatever means available & necessary.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Social dynamics and psychology

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    I'd hand over my wallet and advise my wife and 3yr. old to remain calm and to comply with their requests for wallets & jewelry.
    Thos items don't matter and can be replaced while credit cards can be cancelled with a phone call.

    If it got hairier though with people being threatened to be shot, raped, etc. well then thats a different dynamic altogether and as such instinctual action would be taken toward survival by whatever means available & necessary.

    - Janq
    I'm hoping by this you mean you're looking for psychological clues for your instincts to kick in and not just waiting for them to say "I'm going to shoot you" or them telling you to get on your knees?

    The fact of the matter is that once they storm in with guns drawn...YOU HAVE BEEN THREATENED. If you are waiting to find out if they are willing to shoot you...I fear you will already be dead by the time you find out. -Just a thought

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I owned and operated a cafe for a while and have thought a lot on the subject ( most folks dont realise the cash flow of a eatery imho ) . What i advised my staff is that money is replacable , open the register , and comply with the robbers unless and untill either they were told to move out of public sight , leave with the bg (s) or the bg endangered them and customers ( shot a gun , closely menaced or cut with a knife , ect.. ) then they had best get on the floor because i would be comeing out of the back to end the situation as needed .. no amount of property is worth a shootout but the least of us ( staff or customers ) are . Never was robbed but one abusive man got to set on the hands he couldnt seem to control untill LE arrived to visit with him .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    In a crowded restaurant I would comply with my "dummy" wallet. I don't wear watches (and I own 5 vintage watches now, a hobby of mine) and no jewely.

    As for "by the time that you know they are going to shoot you you may already be dead". I guess that could be true. But depending on how many BG's there are 1 or more, the more you have to take into account. With 1 BG you have a chance of ending the robbery but with more than one then your chances go down greatly.

    Now if they made their intentions clear (just watching and listening to them) that they weren't going to leave witnesses then I would then have to at least try to protect my family and others from serious harm or death.

    Wayne

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova
    I'm hoping by this you mean you're looking for psychological clues for your instincts to kick in and not just waiting for them to say "I'm going to shoot you" or them telling you to get on your knees?

    The fact of the matter is that once they storm in with guns drawn...YOU HAVE BEEN THREATENED. If you are waiting to find out if they are willing to shoot you...I fear you will already be dead by the time you find out. -Just a thought
    Yes, and no.

    If I'm out and with my pregnant wife and 3 yr. old assumedly alone with no backup and not being a super shooter like say Ernie Langdon (even as generally I'm not a bad shotand do train at the range weekly if not biweekly), then no in real life I'm going to assess the play by play and act as most relevant.
    If that means turn over my watch, wallet and whatever other material goods then okay fine here ya go Mr. Wolf, just keep that gun/knife off of me & mine and get out as fast as you came in....as my hand rests hidden on my unholstered hardware.

    But, if he and friends come in agitated and acting like they want more than just a straight & clean strong arm robbery then my instincts will alert me to as much and with that I'll also act accordingly.
    My primary concern is and would be survival of my family. I'm not going to do anythign that decreases their survivability chances and if that means sitting mum and compying for a moment then so be it.
    But if they come to me and mine directly and ask to dance then well I'll take my shot as I can. Obviously if they rush in shooting or even speaking as though they would then it's time to shove the family under the table and at the same time take aim...

    Three on one is tough and the benefit of surprise is advantageous although it's not equivalent to Supermans cape.
    Worst case scenarios like this would require a very cool head, and patience, as well as second by half second instant analysis toward go or no go.
    Odds are if we're out my daughter will be sitting to my right and my wife directly across from me. Should they fire and miss they'll very likely hit them.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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