restraining an intruder in your home

This is a discussion on restraining an intruder in your home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT Do you REALLY want to be the guy standing between a criminal and his freedom? Do you REALLY want to be ...

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Thread: restraining an intruder in your home

  1. #46
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Do you REALLY want to be the guy standing between a criminal and his freedom?

    Do you REALLY want to be in that fight were the other side has more at stake than you do?

    Let them go.

    Let them run.

    Either shoot them when it's justified, or allow them to leave.

    Either way, you do not risk yourself for no reason - and that's what close combat while armed is.


    The second he entered my house he was standing between me and MY freedom.

    I have a girlfriend and a baby, and my OWN life. I have more at stake than the scumbag that broke into MY house.

    Let them go? Let them run? For what? So they can run outside to their vehicle or home boys and come back in guns blazing? So they have time to formulate a better plan, one where they act even smarter and will be prepared to blow away the occupants of the home upon sight on the next job?

    Um, it's pretty much justified from the moment they enter my home until the time the police come and take them away. Even if I disarm them, or get them to disarm themselves, I don't know what other weapons they have, who else is in the house, or that just because they've been disarmed of their primary weapon, which could be their only weapon, they won't try and kill me bare handed, take my gun and kill me and mine.

    Why risk myself for no reason? You gotta be KIDDING me. HE RISKED MY LIFE WHEN HE CAME INTO MY HOUSE UNINVITED. By your logic you should lock your doors and pray for the police to arrive swiftly while your daughter is getting raped in the next room.
    Last edited by HotGuns; June 12th, 2010 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Insults removed

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    providing the OP's scenario took place with no shots fired, I would make NO attempt to restrain him physically. I'm not getting within 15 feet of him... even if he's proned out spread eagle on the floor, and I am standing on (one of) his weapon(s).

    I am calling 911 on speaker. With the exception of the few 10th's of a second to dial... both of my hands are on my weapon, and it is always pointed at him... I am not taking my eyes off of him, nor my gun.

    In a rural area I will have a bit of a wait... prolly 10 minutes or more. I will tell the dispatcher that when I hear sirens, I will explain to the dispatcher the best means of entry for the LEO to my house... I will not take my weapon off the intruder until the police have theirs trained on him or until I see the UNIFORM. LEO will be aware of this because it will be explained to the dispatcher. LEO needs to announce, because it could be an accomplice.

    If I am not alone in the house (which is most likely) my wife will be making the call. She is armed at this point as well but out of the line of fire (of me and the first BG).

  4. #48
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    If a dirtbag breaks into my home...he won't have time to put down his weapon...my castle, my rules...
    Very well said. I think all should go forth and do likewise.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    Clearly you're from Connecticut :)

    The second he entered my house he was standing between me and MY freedom.

    I have a girlfriend and a baby, and my OWN life. I have more at stake than the scumbag that broke into MY house.

    Let them go? Let them run? For what? So they can run outside to their vehicle or home boys and come back in guns blazing? So they have time to formulate a better plan, one where they act even smarter and will be prepared to blow away the occupants of the home upon sight on the next job?

    Um, it's pretty much justified from the moment they enter my home until the time the police come and take them away. Even if I disarm them, or get them to disarm themselves, I don't know what other weapons they have, who else is in the house, or that just because they've been disarmed of their primary weapon, which could be their only weapon, they won't try and kill me bare handed, take my gun and kill me and mine.

    Why risk myself for no reason? You gotta be KIDDING me. HE RISKED MY LIFE WHEN HE CAME INTO MY HOUSE UNINVITED. By your logic you should lock your doors and pray for the police to arrive swiftly while your daughter is getting raped in the next room.

    Your logic clearly reflects your state.
    Does your logic clearly reflect a Castle Doctrine? NC's is not nearly as clear as it needs to be. I feel I could get away with shooting an armed man, or one going to my girls rooms, in the back. Not so sure I would get off shooting one going out the door in the back, armed or not. Something to think about.

    If they get on the floor, then try to get up, I would consider that a threat and act accordingly. If they turn and run out the door, I'll probably save myself the $10k or so for lawyers fees and let the cops deal with them.

    Some states do a much better job of protecting their homeowners than others. And that does play into how you would react if you want to keep on the right side of the law. And yes we are working on it, but not nearly fast enough.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post

    Your logic clearly reflects your state.
    You obviously missed the part about shooting them when it's justified...

    My CT logic tells me to put 2 55 grain Federal Soft Points in them without warning, before they get the chance to surrender rather than engage in a physical confrontation with someone in the dark while managing an AR & a handgun in a holster.

    Yeah. That's CT logic for you.

    CT leftist logic.

    Or...could it be that training has convinced me that gunfights are not all fun and games, the good guys don't always win (even if they are supposed to), and that people who never take into account the fact they may loose will probably end up dead because they rushed in where angels fear to tread?

    Humm.

    Could it be?

    No.

    I must be a leftist. Because I'm from CT.

    Have you ever done ANY force on force training on fighting in structures?

    I don't mean IDPA...I mean strapping on some safety gear and hunting another person in a structure as he's hunting you?

    Changes your view on things...oh it does...
    Try it sometimes. It's...real.

    I don't really know were you are from. I don't care.
    You do what your training tells you to do, I'll do what mine tells me to do.

    I hope it works out for you.

    I have little doubt mine works out for me.

  7. #51
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    Well, the OP's scenario has the BG putting his weapon down before all you tough guys get a chance to shoot him; or he gets down on his knees and surrenders, again, before you have a chance to shoot him.

    If you shoot him in the OP's scenario, after he's surrendered and no longer a threat, you're committing unjustified homicide, i.e., murder. He's no longer a threat to you, therefore you're murdering him if you kill him. Your castle doctrine, and your concealed weapons permit, only gives you the option of ending a threat to your life. You don't get to be an executioner, no matter what your fantasies may entail. Also you don't get to kill someone based on what they might do when they leave your "invaded" home; or for that matter, what they've done while they're there. Revenge is not part of your right to self-defense.

    As to restraining him etc., having a gun and/or a permit doesn't make you a LEO. Leave that to the cops, and keep your distance.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  8. #52
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandolero View Post
    Including turning to run away?
    How do I know they are running away and not seeking cover to engage in a gunfight with me?

    ANY means just that. The time to run was before my gun came into play. They missed their opportunity to run away. Also, given that someone has invaded an occupied dwelling increases the danger to those within and it is logical to presume that they are equiped to "deal" with those inside the dwelling.

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  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    You got some Connecticut Leftist logic in you.

    Are you sure you aren't a hippy?
    No need to get insulting.

    Making sure you're justified before taking a human life is Christian, not leftist, or hippie. It's also not wanting to spend life in prison for Murder 1.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post
    No need to get insulting.

    Making sure you're justified before taking a human life is Christian, not leftist, or hippie. It's also not wanting to spend life in prison for Murder 1.
    He was being sarcastic and agreeing with you, he is from CT as well. he was poking fun at JCabin
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Making rational statements around here is sometimes considered odd.

  12. #56
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post
    Well, the OP's scenario has the BG putting his weapon down before all you tough guys get a chance to shoot him; or he gets down on his knees and surrenders, again, before you have a chance to shoot him.
    TO the OP's POINT....and MINE.
    "You point your gun at him, he puts down his weapon if he is carrying one"

    In MY book....AS I was pointing at the sob WITH a gun..I'm firing. There's no "tough guy" involved there, Quicksabre, there is simply SEEING a GUN in my home....and reacting instantly. YOU "wait" for him to put it down. Not me....I see it, he's armed, I'm reacting. Why on God's green earth anyone here would hesistate any upon seeing someone with a weapon in your home, is beyond me. I personally don't see how upon seeing it, he is going to put it down faster than me pulling the trigger many times. I'm simply not "waiting" to see what he's going to do, was my point.


    If you shoot him in the OP's scenario, after he's surrendered and no longer a threat, you're committing unjustified homicide, i.e., murder. He's no longer a threat to you, therefore you're murdering him if you kill him. Your castle doctrine, and your concealed weapons permit, only gives you the option of ending a threat to your life. You don't get to be an executioner, no matter what your fantasies may entail.
    I don't think too many here have stated execution.....I certainly haven't. Again, for me, if he has a weapon, there never really was much of a chance for him to "surrender". If he's unarmed, and surrenders, that's another ball game. Likewise, if it's dark as night, and I know my son is not this target, and I have the slightest inclination this idiot MAY be armed, HE'S IN MY HOUSE!!!!! Do I hope he's "not" armed and not shoot? NO!
    We can play "what if's" all day long with this, but quite frankly, I don't care what others "feeeeeeel".

    Slower....if need be.....for clarification. ;-)
    1) If he's armed, he's Dead. Stopped, threat gone, whatever you or anyone else wants to call it.
    2) If I even remotely "think" that a person, who is IN my house, and is not my 11 yr old son, is armed.....he's Dead. Stopped, threat gone, whatever you or anyone else wants to call it.
    3) If I come upon him and KNOW that he is not armed, and he surrenders, he's staying there until the police arrive, and they take him to jail. There is no turning around slowly, and apologizing, and tiptoeing away as I watch him leave and "phew, thank God he's gone and didn't hurt us". He's STAYING, one way or the other, and the LAW will hand him judgement for breaking into my home. Free pass, still alive, but jail.
    IF....IF..he makes a move, it all changes again. BIG difference in my personal statements...

    Also you don't get to kill someone based on what they might do when they leave your "invaded" home; or for that matter, what they've done while they're there. Revenge is not part of your right to self-defense.
    Uh....."might" do? "Might" have ALREADY broken into my home, and "might" not be holding a gun? This isn't "revenge", this is something called REALITY.
    He made the decision. If he's armed, in my home, he's as good as dead. Period. I quite frankly, don't have the trust nor the time to wait and "hope" he puts down his weapon. Again, this is ARMED.
    If he's not armed, he will STAY in my home until the police arrive to haul his ass to jail. He will NOT LEAVE.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    TO the OP's POINT....and MINE.
    "You point your gun at him, he puts down his weapon if he is carrying one"

    In MY book....AS I was pointing at the sob WITH a gun..I'm firing. There's no "tough guy" involved there, Quicksabre, there is simply SEEING a GUN in my house....and reacting instantly. YOU "wait" for him to put it down. Not me....I see it, he's armed, I'm reacting.
    Right... The OP's scenario has you not shooting in time before he puts down his gun. No matter how fast you shoot in your fantasy, that's the OP's fantasy scenario. You don't shoot, he puts down the gun. If you shoot him after that, you commit murder. You want to create your own fantasy scenario, go right ahead. This is the OP's fantasy.

    He's waiting for the police, and IF....IF..he makes a move, it all changes again.
    Of course. No argument here. Incidentally this is why it would be foolish to attempt to "cuff" him; you're giving someone trained in H2H a golden opportunity.

    Uh....."might" do? "Might" have ALREADY broken into my home, and "might" not be holding a gun? This isn't "revenge", this is something called REALITY.
    Just referring to the OP scenario. He broke in, then put his gun down when confronted. If you shoot him then, it's revenge and as such, unjustifiable.

    He made the decision. If he's armed, in my home, he's as good as dead. Period.
    Sure, but in the OP scenario, he's not armed anymore.

    I quite frankly, don't have the trust nor the time to wait and "hope" he puts down his weapon. Again, this is ARMED.
    Again, according to the OP's scenario, he's not armed; he put the gun down before you could shoot; apparently much to your chagrin.

    If he's not armed, he will STAY in my home until the police arrive to haul his ass to jail. He will NOT LEAVE.
    That's fine. The OP's scenario and question involved just that. He is unarmed, and should you restrain him or not. That's it, not should you shoot him before he disarms, that was never the question. Most of us would of course shoot an armed home invader - but if you're too slow and he drops his weapon, you don't get to fulfill your fantasy of being able to shoot someone justifiably - you'll just have to wait for the next time, and be quicker about it.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  14. #58
    Member Array HerbM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    ...
    My point in my first post was that in the real world he gets no warning and about one millionth of a second to drop the weapon. After the weapon is down he will be told "not to move". Let's be real here, he is still a lethal threat to me and my family until the police arrive and take him into custody. If he moves even a little bit I would not try to guess his intentions, I would just shoot him.
    That actually makes more sense and wasn't clear from you post.

    As you criminal with a weapon in my home is likely never going to get a chance to take further action.

    In fact, although nothing is certain in a hypothetical, I cannot imagine many cases where FIRST telling such an intruder to drop his weapon -- even a millionth of a second.

    An armed intruder has no expectation of warning, neither ethically nor legally (around here.)

    This is fact one of the cases where the criminal may reasonably (and legally) be shot in the back if he happens to be facing away while holding a dangerous weapon.

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  15. #59
    Member Array HerbM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    ...
    Have you ever done ANY force on force training on fighting in structures?

    I don't mean IDPA...I mean strapping on some safety gear and hunting another person in a structure as he's hunting you?

    Changes your view on things...oh it does...
    Try it sometimes. It's...real. \
    ...
    This portion of your post is extremely good advice.

    Nothing wrong with IDPA, and it is in fact quite useful for SOME of our training/practice time, but doing some force on force alters the tactical mindset of everyone who engages in it, and will almost certainly improve their survivability.

    --
    HerbM

  16. #60
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post
    Right... The OP's scenario has you not shooting in time before he puts down his gun. No matter how fast you shoot in your fantasy, that's the OP's fantasy scenario. You don't shoot, he puts down the gun. If you shoot him after that, you commit murder. You want to create your own fantasy scenario, go right ahead. This is the OP's fantasy.

    I get your point. Realistically, I would think that we'd fire after immediately seeing it. WE HAVE THE RIGHT, in fact, to fire. He's armed, and it yeah, is a scenario where possibly we would be firing AS....he's dropping the weapon. Oh well.....
    That ain't "murder", that's just him being armed and not putting the weapon down "fast" enough. A home invasion, broke in, armed, et cetera? I think I'd be fine, in court. Given my record, service, responses to the officers that showed up when *I* called, I don't foresee an issue, at all.
    I get your point, but maaaaan, we are talking milliseconds here. For clarification, yes.....if he's unarmed BEFORE I shoot, of course, your theory applies.


    Just referring to the OP scenario. He broke in, then put his gun down when confronted. If you shoot him then, it's revenge and as such, unjustifiable.
    Understood. I, and others I think, are having a hard time believing there is that much time difference in seeing him armed/ us drawing....and him "dropping the weapon"? Again, I refer back to the "given my record, service, responses to the officers that showed up when *I* called, I don't foresee an issue, at all."
    MUCH more importantly, he broke into my home, ARMED.....I don't understand what the issue with this you seem to have...is.

    Sure, but in the OP scenario, he's not armed anymore.
    TWO scenarios...I addressed both of them, with an ARMED....and UNARMED response. Many addressed both scenarios.

    Again, according to the OP's scenario, he's not armed; he put the gun down before you could shoot; apparently much to your chagrin.

    no need to be a smartass here....
    I'm AGAIN, not wanting to "automatically" shoot someone, as ALL here aren't, but when you have an ARMED sob in your home, all bets are off. Pretty simple.

    No.....in the scenario, he WAS armed, I, and other's simply pointed out that many of us on planet earth wouldn't WAIT to see him put down the weapon. Therein, lies what our point is. I personally could never imagine ANY timeframe where I would see someone with a weapon, and then "oooooh, he's putting it down."

    That's fine. The OP's scenario and question involved just that. He is unarmed, and should you restrain him or not. That's it, not should you shoot him before he disarms, that was never the question. Most of us would of course shoot an armed home invader - but if you're too slow and he drops his weapon, you don't get to fulfill your fantasy of being able to shoot someone justifiably - you'll just have to wait for the next time, and be quicker about it.

    I hear the noise, I'm armed, ready, fearful for my life, prepared to possibly/actually be shot/maimed/injured and scanning for threats, and I come upon an ARMED man IN my house.....
    There's not going to be much time for me to notice him "dropping it".
    GET MY POINT YET?????

    More importantly, there is no "fantasy" that anyone is "trying to fulfill" here, Quick....



    For God's sake's, some of the posters here, (not you), are trying to bring a ""match"" to a friggin' TORCH FIGHT!
    WAKE UP!!!!
    Last edited by TheoryRealm; June 8th, 2010 at 08:38 PM.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

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