restraining an intruder in your home - Page 6

restraining an intruder in your home

This is a discussion on restraining an intruder in your home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare Question (channels Dwight Schrute): If he's not armed, how do you force him to stay? You cant shoot him if he ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Question (channels Dwight Schrute): If he's not armed, how do you force him to stay? You cant shoot him if he tries to leave.
    Should you not favor a lethal solution to the problem there is always stun guns. Don't know the qualilty, but I have seen them for as little as $35.


  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Question (channels Dwight Schrute): If he's not armed, how do you force him to stay? You cant shoot him if he tries to leave.
    Refer to my statement about any movement once told to not move.

    That was his or her one and only chance. If they blow that, the end result is upon them.

    Now bear in mind, while I have no desire to shoot or kill anyone, the possibility is always there and I have accepted that fact. I cannot, and will not, be responsible for someone's failure in the victim selection process.

    While I have no desire to shoot or kill someone, I also cannot afford, for my safety and the safety of those within my abode, to be concerned about the one that put me in the situation in which I have to discharge my weapon. They, at that point, cease to be a human being for that fraction in time, and are A THREAT to my life and the life of those I care about. They will be dealt with accordingly.

    I have pre-drawn lines in the sand. Once those lines are crossed the only response from me is lethal force. I suggest that those that are dithering about sit down and rethink their commitment to taking a human life. If questioning the commitment, go hunting and kill an animal. While not a human, it does involve death and the taking of a life. Some people will learn that they cannot kill.

    Biker

  3. #78
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Since he's in your house, keeping him guarded with gun out or pointed makes sense from SD standpoint - otherwise he could pull a gun out - or grab the one he dropped on the floor if that's what happened. So, you're not holding anyone for the sake of holding anyone. Restraints are a bad idea - don't get close, people can move fast and you don't want your gun taken in a struggle. Also, if someone runs - shooting would be really dicey legally. No longer SD.

    A 911 call with those circumstances described will get the cops there quick I would think - then the problem is, don't have the gun in your hand when they come in. Holster it or put on floor far away from BG and raise your hands - in these circumstances maybe best to holster it.
    And make sure in the 911 call you describe yourself carefully to help the cops out.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Should you not favor a lethal solution to the problem there is always stun guns. Don't know the qualilty, but I have seen them for as little as $35.
    Actually you can buy a pretty good one (3+ Million volts w/flashlight, cigarette pack size) for about $15 (shipped total) these days.

    I have bought a couple and recommend them for certain types of issues, but....

    I would in no way be planning on stunning a criminal who is inside my house and already disarmed at the point of my gun.

    Stun guns are mainly for those cases where you are in danger of being grabbed or attacked, and you have no gun.


    There is ONE possible reason for 'using' the stun gun, but even that is likely to just distract the home owners attention so I am not going to recommend it, only mention it in fairness:

    You fire it off in the air, to let him hear the sizzle and see the sparking -- much more useful when someone gets to close to you in a dark parking lot etc (and you probably don't have a gun or want to show it yet.)

    One thing that has not been mentioned so far:

    Command presence and voice!


    The scenario is that he has already given up once.

    It is very critical to make a believer out of anyone you are trying to stop or detain.

    You do this by confident actions, clear commands, using a command level voice that leaves ZERO doubts.


    This is something that should also be practice during force on force and role playing.

    If you cannot use a command voice in a safe role playing environment then you are unlikely to do so in a stressful situation with a real criminal.

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    HerbM

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerbM View Post
    Actually you can buy a pretty good one (3+ Million volts w/flashlight, cigarette pack size) for about $15 (shipped total) these days.

    I have bought a couple and recommend them for certain types of issues, but....

    I would in no way be planning on stunning a criminal who is inside my house and already disarmed at the point of my gun.

    Stun guns are mainly for those cases where you are in danger of being grabbed or attacked, and you have no gun.


    There is ONE possible reason for 'using' the stun gun, but even that is likely to just distract the home owners attention so I am not going to recommend it, only mention it in fairness:

    You fire it off in the air, to let him hear the sizzle and see the sparking -- much more useful when someone gets to close to you in a dark parking lot etc (and you probably don't have a gun or want to show it yet.)

    One thing that has not been mentioned so far:

    Command presence and voice!


    The scenario is that he has already given up once.

    It is very critical to make a believer out of anyone you are trying to stop or detain.

    You do this by confident actions, clear commands, using a command level voice that leaves ZERO doubts.


    This is something that should also be practice during force on force and role playing.

    If you cannot use a command voice in a safe role playing environment then you are unlikely to do so in a stressful situation with a real criminal.

    --
    HerbM
    In order:

    A stun gun is a less than lethal method of control. While its use may be implemented in cases where you have no firearm, it may also be used in cases where you do have a firearm, but the threshold for lethal force has not been met. In that instance it is similar to a punch or arm lock. Its use to prevent the escape of a detained felon would be justified (depending on locality) and looked on much more favorably than the use of lethal force, barring any additional threat that could be articulated.

    While I agree the concept and use of command voice, there those who pay it no mind even if it sounds like the devil incarnate.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Also, if someone runs - shooting would be really dicey legally. No longer SD.
    Well, most here seem to say that if he moves at all, they're going to kill him, even if he's trying to run away. In my book, and I'd bet in many prosecutors' books, that makes one a murderer.

    The guy is no longer a threat, once he's running away. What he may or may not do in the future, or to others, is not your concern or within your rights to deal with. Killing someone who has surrendered his weapon, or never had one - as are the cases in the OP scenario being discussed here - a BG who no longer directly threatens you, is trying to escape, etc. is murder, i.e., unjustifiable homicide.

    Your only right is to stop an attack on you and your family's lives, not to get revenge, be judge and jury delivering the death penalty, or to act in some "future crime" prevention "supercop" mode.

    A 911 call with those circumstances described will get the cops there quick I would think - then the problem is, don't have the gun in your hand when they come in.
    C'mon - get with the program - who needs the cops when you can just kill the guy and claim he was going for the gun he so cleverly dropped on the floor?

    And make sure in the 911 call you describe yourself carefully to help the cops out.
    The situation can be dicey for sure. I'd holster it once they arrive and ID myself to the cops ASAP.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post

    Your only right is to stop an attack on you and your family's lives, not to get revenge, be judge and jury delivering the death penalty, or to act in some "future crime" prevention "supercop" mode.
    THAT....is your "opinion". Thank you, duly noted.
    He gave up his "rights" when he entered my home...............Armed, with a deadly weapon. I'd hate to live next door to you, and have you give me a call saying, "Oh, uh...ahem, by the way, uh...this armed guy broke into my house, and he surrendered, and walked out. I don't know if he's coming your way...."
    YOU can let him go. I and others saw this armed, home invader for what he IS....a....threat.

    If I have an ARMED man in my house, who broke into it, and he turns to "run", he pays for a THIRD mistake. How many chances would you like us all here to give him, "neighbor"?

    He is a deadly threat, if there ever was one, Quick. This is the kind of thing we train for, and need to recognize, and need to ACT upon, if any. This beats an armed carjacking scenario, a bank robbery scenario, and a "he took my blueberry cheesecake" at the fancy restaurant scenario all wrapped up into one. This... is in ....your home....armed.

    These kind of people KILL people, all the time, and some of us REALIZE it.....
    He's going to jail, period. I'll let you sleep peacefully, and when I get off work tomorrow, I'll see you at the mailboxes and let you know what happened, yeah?

    Jesus.....
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    THAT....is your "opinion". Thank you, duly noted.
    Ask any cop or prosecutor if you have the right to kill someone who isn't trying to kill you or yours...not someone who might try to kill you, or who had the audacity to bring a weapon into your home and then surrender it and himself.

    Ask them if you have the right to kill someone who broke into your home, armed or unarmed, as in the OP's scenario, then surrendered himself. I think the answer most likely is "You kill a person who's trying to get away after dropping his weapon, you're a murderer."

    Armed, with a deadly weapon.
    Per the OP's scenario, he isn't armed any more, or wasn't in the first place, before he surrendered.

    I'd hate to live next door to you, and have you give me a call saying, "Oh, uh...ahem, by the way, uh...this armed guy broke into my house, and he surrendered, and walked out. I don't know if he's coming your way...."
    No sweat, I wouldn't bother calling. Everyone in my neighborhood is prepared to deal with intruders, and the police would be on the way anyway.

    YOU can let him go. I and others saw this armed, home invader for what he IS....a....threat.
    Once he drops his weapon and surrenders, he's still a threat, deserving to be killed? How much of a threat is a guy who dropped his weapon in fear, and is cowering there under your gun, or running away? That's not a threat.

    If I have an ARMED man in my house, who broke into it, and he turns to "run", he pays for a THIRD mistake.
    Per the OP's scenario, he isn't armed any more, if he ever was.

    How many chances would you like us all here to give him, "neighbor"?
    The chance to go to trial as a home invader; I'd say that would do it. If he makes an aggressive move, fine, shoot him. But if he's running away, you're going to shoot him in the back and then claim you felt "threatened?"

    He is a deadly threat, if there ever was one, Quick.
    Before he dropped the weapon, sure. Afterwards, not so much.


    These kind of people KILL people, all the time, and some of us REALIZE it.....
    What kind of people? The disarmed, or unarmed, surrendering kind? What planet are you from?

    He's going to jail, period.
    Well, sure, that's the point. He's going to jail, if he survives summary execution after trying to run away, that is.

    Jesus.....
    We should probably keep religion and religious references out of the discussion.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  9. #84
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post
    Ask any cop or prosecutor if you have the right to kill someone who isn't trying to kill you or yours...not someone who might try to kill you, or who had the audacity to bring a weapon into your home and then surrender it and himself.
    He's IN my house, WITH a weapon....I consider that trying to KILL me.
    You don't get it. Armed, and in my house that he broke into. Pretty simple. He's going to jail in MY house, and walking out if he wants, in yours. Oh well....


    Ask them if you have the right to kill someone who broke into your home, armed or unarmed, as in the OP's scenario, then surrendered himself. I think the answer most likely is "You kill a person who's trying to get away after dropping his weapon, you're a murderer."
    He was caught, in my house. If he's armed and he "had" time to drop it before I saw him with it, then he's STAYING there, and going nowhere. YOUR so called "rules" and "opinions" do not apply to me.

    Per the OP's scenario, he isn't armed any more, or wasn't in the first place, before he surrendered.
    I covered BOTH scenarios, as did most people. Either way, he's not going anywhere, in MY house.....We understand, you'd let him go. Oh well...again... Don't like MY choice? You'll be fine in the morning.

    No sweat, I wouldn't bother calling. Everyone in my neighborhood is prepared to deal with intruders, and the police would be on the way anyway.

    Once he drops his weapon and surrenders, he's still a threat, deserving to be killed? How much of a threat is a guy who dropped his weapon in fear, and is cowering there under your gun, or running away? That's not a threat.
    I stated....If you'd pay closer attention....that IF he has dropped his weapon, he is NOT GOING ANYWHERE. I and others, (for your reading comprehension reminder) TOLD him it would be a veeeeeery bad choice for him to decide to "leave" at that juncture. If he makes the choice ( a third bad one) to run, he's not going to like it. BIG difference in simply shooting a "cowering, surrendering" person. BIG DIFFERENCE......Quick.

    OP's scenario, he isn't armed any more, if he ever was.
    He was....and he's broken into my home

    to go to trial as a home invader; I'd say that would do it. If he makes an aggressive move, fine, shoot him. But if he's running away, you're going to shoot him in the back and then claim you felt "threatened?"
    Did I state I'd shoot him in the back? I claimed in this scenario (the gun one) that if he turned at GUNPOINT, it would be a "move" and dealt with, and the gun would be kicked to the side....ANOTHER....BIG...DIFFERENCE in the conversation that you're getting conflicted with.



    What kind of people? The disarmed, or unarmed, surrendering kind? What planet are you from?
    The armed....
    I'm from THIS planet, where someone just broke into my house, ARMED. Yes, ok, on your planet, he goes next door, where someone DEALS with the problem....

    Well, sure, that's the point. He's going to jail, if he survives summary execution after trying to run away, that is.

    Who implied I, or anyone saying the same thing about "Don't MOVE", means EXECUTION?!!!!!??? He was instructed, after forcefully BREAKING INTO MY HOME, and being ARMED...to NOT MOVE.

    Hmm, well it's a good thing I have the nerve to stop an ARMED HOME INVADER, yeah? Imagine that? I carry a deadly weapon, to possibly face death and destruction against others with deadly weapons and half baked minds, and I understand the concepts of sheep verses wolves.
    Wow, amazing concept!!!! Are you here to learn how to bake a great lasagna? Really?

    You better come to the conclusion quickly my friend, that the world is a dangerous place, and your fellow human beings will cut you, shoot you, and even rip out your eyeballs and cook them on your stove for nothing more than craps and giggles....
    Again, planet Earth.





    We should probably keep religion and religious references out of the discussion.


    The "Jeeeeesus" quote, was along the lines of..."Oh....my God", or "For God's Sake's"....or you know, "UNBELIEVABLE"
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    Nope, I'd SHOOT him, because he is IN my house ARMED.
    If others, are "uncomfortable" taking a life, I understand that. I say..."good luck with that..." If a person is in MY house, armed, I'm assuming he's willing and able to take mine. This isn't that difficult a decision, for me.


    Home invasion....ARMED...pretty simple.



    Agreed. I think personally, people need to grow a pair if they are considering carrying a deadly weapon in the first place. Someone comes in your house, BREAKS into your home, and is armed, you better be ready to KILL them. I'm not making them pancakes....


    :
    I typically disagree with a lot of your posts, but is this instance. You are dead nuts on target. To quote someone else on here "He ain't there to hide easter eggs"

    If I wake to an armed intruder in my house at night? He is dead that second if I have the drop on him. To consider any other alternative is, to put it bluntly STUPID. If he is there, and armed, he is DEAD! Back to me, front to me, whatever, DEAD. If he is unarmed there is a very good chance he is still dead. I am not going to risk my life, my wife's life or the life of my 74 year old Mother who lives with me.

    If he is unarmed, or appears unarmed how do I know for sure, why should I risk my family's safety? Florida's castle law say's if he is there forcefully and unlawfully I can use deadly force.

    I am not getting into a fight with a crack addict or some other thug who thought my house was an easy mark. To quote Brownie "Let ugly out early" I am old, fat and tired, I am not going to fight, because if I get hurt, my family is vulnerable. I will not let that happen.

    There is a Mossberg next to the bed and an XD .45 on the table next to me, dear old Mom, has her .357 and the wife has her 9mm. I promise, none of us would hesitate. If you hesitate when facing and armed intruder for an instant, a millisecond, you are stupid. His plan is to kill you if he has to. He is armed for that reason. My plan is to drop him like a rock.

    He will have not chance to disarm or surrender if I get the drop on him, there will be no warning.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  11. #86
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Question (channels Dwight Schrute): If he's not armed, how do you force him to stay? You cant shoot him if he tries to leave.
    In Florida I dang sure can and probably would!

    If I thought he posed any threat whatsoever, NO MERCY!
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzattack View Post
    You're sleeping in your house, and awakened by a noise. You pick up your gun, and find a burglar. You point your gun at him, he puts down his weapon if he is carrying one, but if unarmed, he puts his hands up and gets on his knees. Or, if he runs out of your house, he may signal down an LEO and claim to have been threatened by you. The LEO goes in, and a dispute goes on to determine who is right after you claim you had a break in. It is hours before it is determined you were right, and the intruder is taken into custody. You might have been taken downtown in that time.

    If an intruder comes into your home, armed or unarmed, and they surrender to you, would it be a good idea to cuff him or tape him up to keep him from doing such a thing? Is it even legal to restrain an intruder if he surrenders and complies with you?
    Anyone uninvited in my home gets shot without any warning or comment from me in the back if need be. Restraining him should not be an issue if I do my part. As I have previously said I am not an EMT or doctor nor have any ability to diagnose injury. So I have no compulsion to render aid and risk exposing myself to their disease infested junky crack whore fecal maggot blood. Once LEO arrive they can determine if aid is needed and make the appropriate call.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage2521 View Post
    If I thought he posed any threat whatsoever, NO MERCY!
    They have made a violent illegal entry into your home. Can you explain how they are not a threat?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    They have made a violent illegal entry into your home. Can you explain how they are not a threat?
    You obviously did not read my post. Where in it did I leave any ambiguity as to my mindset in this situation. Since I am unable to forsee every possible situation I included this caveat "If I thought he posed any threat whatsoever" Since I cannot imagine every possible circumstance that could ever possibly happen. It is conceivable that there could be some circumstance where I did not shoot on sight. It is highly unlikely, but I cannot say impossible. Understand now?

    OK, here is one. As I come around the corner and see the BG in my living room, I also spot the LEO in my front doorway that my neighbor called when they saw a stranger in my yard at night. Said LEO is drawing down on the BG. I am not, showing myself, firing or anything. I would drop back around the corner, take a defensive positon and wait. BG is in the gun sights of LEO surrendering to him. I would not perceive a deadly force level threat at that point.

    I would not fire on someone who was not a threat to me or mine.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzattack View Post
    If an intruder comes into your home, armed or unarmed, and they surrender to you, would it be a good idea to cuff him or tape him up to keep him from doing such a thing? Is it even legal to restrain an intruder if he surrenders and complies with you?
    Do you think that the BG is no longer a threat because he "appears" to have surrendered to you or he "appears" unarmed to you? How about his buddy standing in the dark corner with his Glock (cuz all thugs carry Glocks) waiting for you to expose yourself?
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    You don't get it. Armed, and in my house that he broke into. Pretty simple.
    Not armed any longer, if you bothered to read the OP. Or not armed at all, again if you bothered to read the OP. Surrendering in both cases. I don't see the problem. If he runs away while he's under your gun, you will shoot him and claim self-defense, I get it.

    He's going to jail in MY house, and walking out if he wants, in yours.
    In the OP scenarios, once again, I/we/you were too slow to shoot, (no matter your fantasy that you are quick enough to kill him before he cleverly drops his weapon), and he dropped his weapon and surrendered. So obviously if he waits for the cops as I/we/you instruct him to, he goes to jail. If he goes for his weapon or another weapon, he gets shot, fine. If he tries to run away, unarmed, I am not so terrified of what an unarmed man may do that I feel I must shoot him. I let him go, and he gets dealt with another day. I am not a LEO, and I realize that.

    He was caught, in my house. If he's armed and he "had" time to drop it before I saw him with it, then he's STAYING there, and going nowhere.
    Sure, no problem, if he chooses to obey you, and why on earth wouldn't a criminal obey? Gee, I can't think of any reasons.

    We understand, you'd let him go.
    If he tries to run, I am not so terrified of my own shadow that I feel I must shoot, that's true. He gets away if he tries to run away unarmed; it's not my place to stop him or kill him if he's no longer a threat.

    I and others, (for your reading comprehension reminder) TOLD him it would be a veeeeeery bad choice for him to decide to "leave" at that juncture.
    Sure, I get it. If he decides to run away, unarmed, and no longer a threat to you, you're going to kill him. I get that. It's wrong, since he's no longer a threat, per the OP scenario, but I get that you'd do it anyway.

    If he makes the choice ( a third bad one) to run, he's not going to like it. BIG difference in simply shooting a "cowering, surrendering" person. BIG DIFFERENCE......Quick.
    Right, big difference. He's cowering, surrendering, or he's running away. Sure, big difference. Call a prosecutor and ask him to explain why it's okay to shoot a fleeing person.

    Did I state I'd shoot him in the back? I claimed in this scenario (the gun one) that if he turned at GUNPOINT, it would be a "move" and dealt with,
    He's turning away, gunpoint or not, so therefore you're shooting him in the back.

    I'm from THIS planet, where someone just broke into my house, ARMED.
    But on this planet, in this scenario, he's dropped his weapon and surrendered. In your wet-dream extension of the OP's scenario, he turns to run and you execute him. Yep, I get it.

    Who implied I, or anyone saying the same thing about "Don't MOVE",
    So he moves away from you, as in running away, not towards his gun or you, but towards the door. How is that a threat to you at that moment? It clearly isn't.

    He was instructed, after forcefully BREAKING INTO MY HOME, and being ARMED...to NOT MOVE.
    But clearly he has already demonstrated an inability to follow instructions. So he moves away from you, trying to run away, and you kill him. I get it.

    Hmm, well it's a good thing I have the nerve to stop an ARMED HOME INVADER, yeah?
    Well, the problem is that in the OP scenarios, your nerve lagged and you foolishly allowed the deviant to drop his weapon and surrender, thus robbing you of your chance to kill him and be a hero.

    You better come to the conclusion quickly my friend, that the world is a dangerous place,
    Really? Wow, thanks for that tidbit. Living in Detroit my whole life, I thought everybody was friendly.

    The "Jeeeeesus" quote, was along the lines of..."Oh....my God", or "For God's Sake's"....or you know, "UNBELIEVABLE"
    Oh, right, thanks for clearing that right up.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

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