restraining an intruder in your home

This is a discussion on restraining an intruder in your home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TheoryRealm 1) There is a gun he brought with him. BIGGEST factor in my favor. Yes I know, thanks. But this is ...

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    1) There is a gun he brought with him. BIGGEST factor in my favor.

    Yes I know, thanks. But this is what I quoted and was curious about, which you had posted earlier:


    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    If he's not armed, he will STAY in my home until the police arrive to haul his ass to jail. He will NOT LEAVE.
    How do you make him stay?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Should you not favor a lethal solution to the problem there is always stun guns. Don't know the qualilty, but I have seen them for as little as $35.

    Wut? I wouldnt have a gun if I hadnt accepted the fact that lethal force is sometimes necessary.

    And if someone univited is armed in my home...or multiple someones, armed or not, once identified....I will not hesitate to use my firearm to defend myself.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Refer to my statement about any movement once told to not move.

    That was his or her one and only chance. If they blow that, the end result is upon them.

    Now bear in mind, while I have no desire to shoot or kill anyone, the possibility is always there and I have accepted that fact. I cannot, and will not, be responsible for someone's failure in the victim selection process.

    While I have no desire to shoot or kill someone, I also cannot afford, for my safety and the safety of those within my abode, to be concerned about the one that put me in the situation in which I have to discharge my weapon. They, at that point, cease to be a human being for that fraction in time, and are A THREAT to my life and the life of those I care about. They will be dealt with accordingly.

    I have pre-drawn lines in the sand. Once those lines are crossed the only response from me is lethal force. I suggest that those that are dithering about sit down and rethink their commitment to taking a human life. If questioning the commitment, go hunting and kill an animal. While not a human, it does involve death and the taking of a life. Some people will learn that they cannot kill.

    Biker

    Is this an answer to the question I actually asked?

    "Originally Posted by 9MMare
    If he's not armed, how do you force him to stay? You cant shoot him if he tries to leave."

    Or would you shoot anyway to make him stay?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #94
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Wut? I wouldnt have a gun if I hadnt accepted the fact that lethal force is sometimes necessary.

    And if someone univited is armed in my home...or multiple someones, armed or not, once identified....I will not hesitate to use my firearm to defend myself.
    That was in answer to your question of how to stop him if he tried to leave, after he was disarmed.

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    That was in answer to your question of how to stop him if he tried to leave, after he was disarmed.
    Oh sorry, I didnt catch that.

    Taser. OK thanks.

    Pretty sure my hands are going to be full of cell phone and gun and tac light (if I dont get a mounted one soon). But if you've prepared for that, sounds ok.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #96
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post
    Not armed any longer, if you bothered to read the OP. Or not armed at all, again if you bothered to read the OP. Surrendering in both cases. I don't see the problem. If he runs away while he's under your gun, you will shoot him and claim self-defense, I get it.

    I Read the Op.....YOU need to read that YOUR rules do NOT apply to me, when someone is in MY house.....We've been over this.
    He's not LEAVING. We get you'd let him, we get it. zzzzzz

    In the OP scenarios, once again, I/we/you were too slow to shoot, (no matter your fantasy that you are quick enough to kill him before he cleverly drops his weapon), and he dropped his weapon and surrendered. So obviously if he waits for the cops as I/we/you instruct him to, he goes to jail. If he goes for his weapon or another weapon, he gets shot, fine. If he tries to run away, unarmed, I am not so terrified of what an unarmed man may do that I feel I must shoot him. I let him go, and he gets dealt with another day. I am not a LEO, and I realize that.

    That end result, is where YOU AND I, disagree. You'd let him run, so be it, again...Someone ELSE now has to DEAL with the PROBLEM.

    Sure, no problem, if he chooses to obey you, and why on earth wouldn't a criminal obey? Gee, I can't think of any reasons.
    I could care less if he "obeys"....
    You think I let him determine anything else once he has broken INTO MY HOME...ARMED? Waaaaaa!

    If he tries to run, I am not so terrified of my own shadow that I feel I must shoot, that's true. He gets away if he tries to run away unarmed; it's not my place to stop him or kill him if he's no longer a threat.

    Understood....Psssssht.
    He runs and possibly does harm to someone else in YOUR world. In MY world, he has broken into MY home, he was armed, and he was instructed to STAY AT GUNPOINT, and if he makes the decision to make ANOTHER stupid decision, that's his choice. You'll catch up.

    Sure, I get it. If he decides to run away, unarmed, and no longer a threat to you, you're going to kill him. I get that. It's wrong, since he's no longer a threat, per the OP scenario, but I get that you'd do it anyway.
    You're assuming things, as usual.....You stated earlier, that I'd "Shoot him in the back"....and now.."I'd kill him". I don't really care what (AGAIN) you deem or "opine" about what is/isn't "wrong" or a "threat" in this situation. He broke into my house, armed....Pretty simple. He has made TWO very bad choices, that YOU don't seem to understand was waaaaaaay WRONG, pal. If I instructed him to STAY, and that he is NOT LEAVING, and it's HIS CHOICE whether or not I shoot his idiot self, then HE would be wrong by taking another....Wrong....action


    Right, big difference. He's cowering, surrendering, or he's running away. Sure, big difference. Call a prosecutor and ask him to explain why it's okay to shoot a fleeing person.
    FORCED entry, into my home, and armed. Put YOUR prosecutor up against me here ANY DAY....in Virginia, Quick. HAAA! Go on, give it a try, I'll wait........

    He's turning away, gunpoint or not, so therefore you're shooting him in the back.
    Nope, he reached for his gun after being instructed to not move. He made ANOTHER bad choice. You on the other hand, let him turn around and go out the door to your neighbors a week or so later, where he forced into their house, armed again, and was more careful this time and shot the family.

    But on this planet, in this scenario, he's dropped his weapon and surrendered. In your wet-dream extension of the OP's scenario, he turns to run and you execute him. Yep, I get it.
    Nope, in your mind, he's never been a threat enough to shoot after FORCED entry, being armed, instructed to stay, and then you baked him cookies. Yep, I get it.
    He's lucky, very lucky in fact, that I didn't ALREADY shoot him (as others have stated) the moment I SAW him in my house. But oh no....I'm giving the idiot ANOTHER chance? Don't move idiot....or....
    See how nice *I* am, compared to others here? Awwwwwww, feel the love, cookie maker?

    So he moves away from you, as in running away, not towards his gun or you, but towards the door. How is that a threat to you at that moment? It clearly isn't.
    I HAD him at gunpoint....pay attention to the conversation. I told you, that YOUR "opinions" on what is deemed a THREAT in MY house, means nothing. It CLEARLY WAS a threat the moment he broke into my house, and was armed. Again....This is about as THREATENING as one can get all rolled up into one. He's going to jail, or if HE decides, he's getting shot. Glad I could assist you, again.

    But clearly he has already demonstrated an inability to follow instructions. So he moves away from you, trying to run away, and you kill him. I get it.
    Oh well, would you like for me to cry with you? CLEARLY, he has demonstrated he made a THIRD bad decision, by not coming over to your house for cookies, yeah?

    Well, the problem is that in the OP scenarios, your nerve lagged and you foolishly allowed the deviant to drop his weapon and surrender, thus robbing you of your chance to kill him and be a hero.
    He's got one last chance, to get shot. HIS choice....
    This really too difficult for you, Quick?
    Nice "hero" BS though, cute in fact...zzzzz
    Doesn't take a "hero" to realize reality and the situation is a threat over and over and over and over again. Perhaps "common sense" should come into play eventually? Yeah?


    Wow, thanks for that tidbit. Living in Detroit my whole life, I thought everybody was friendly.
    Oh, right, thanks for clearing that right up.
    Yep, no problem. I'm glad to point people like you to REALITY.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  8. #97
    Member Array TheoryRealm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Yes I know, thanks. But this is what I quoted and was curious about, which you had posted earlier:




    How do you make him stay?
    ANSWERED in post #76

    (3.....
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  9. #98
    Member Array ASHTXSNIPER's Avatar
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    I recommend cuffing but you first need to be trained in how to properly use handcuffs.
    Proud houlder of a Texas Open Carry License.

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASHTXSNIPER View Post
    I recommend cuffing but you first need to be trained in how to properly use handcuffs.
    Agreed, but I would add, at least well trained and practiced. Experienced would be nice.

  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoryRealm View Post
    He's not LEAVING. We get you'd let him, we get it.
    Right, and I get that if, after he surrenders and is unarmed, he decides to run away, you'd shoot the unarmed, retreating home invader. That's very clear.

    That end result, is where YOU AND I, disagree. You'd let him run, so be it, again
    Right, I'd let the now harmless, unarmed, running-away BG escape without shooting him in the back, since it's NOT MY JOB to shoot unarmed, fleeing bad guys who no longer present a danger to me or mine.

    I could care less if he "obeys"....
    Clearly. You're itching to shoot someone, so it doesn't matter what the guy does once he surrenders and is helpless. Even if he doesn't make a move towards you or his weapon, and only runs away, you're so frightened of what he might do in the future, you'll kill him. Yep, that's very clear.

    You think I let him determine anything else once he has broken INTO MY HOME...ARMED?
    You seem to have this fantasy that bad guys are going to listen to you and obey you once you have them at gunpoint. You don't have the power to "let him determine" any particular thing, don't you realize that?

    He runs and possibly does harm to someone else in YOUR world.
    Crime prevention is not my job, nor is crime punishment. Apparently it is your job, or in your fantasy world it is, anyway.

    In MY world, he has broken into MY home, he was armed, and he was instructed to STAY AT GUNPOINT,
    He broke in, sure, and he should be punished for that, but not by you. He was armed, I realize it's a tough concept but it's past tense, but is no longer armed and is in fact running away, no longer a direct threat to you.

    and if he makes the decision to make ANOTHER stupid decision, that's his choice.
    As I said before, if he makes an aggressive move, fine, shoot him. But if his "bad decision" is to run away, it's not your place to kill him for that.

    He broke into my house, armed....Pretty simple.
    Yep, he did. And then he dropped his gun and surrendered because you were too slow on the trigger. Now if he runs away, all you can legally do is watch, since he is no longer a threat to you. But sure, I understand that you'll shoot him anyway and then lie to the police that your life was in grave danger from this unarmed, fleeing BG.

    He has made TWO very bad choices, that YOU don't seem to understand was waaaaaaay WRONG,
    No, I get it. He broke in, invaded your home, armed. That's bad. You should have shot him. But you didn't. You mistakenly gave him time to drop his weapon and surrender. Then you gave him "directions" he didn't want to follow, so he turns to run. Then you kill him. I totally get it.

    If I instructed him to STAY, and that he is NOT LEAVING, and it's HIS CHOICE whether or not I shoot his idiot self,
    You really think some crackhead is going to obey your mighty instructions? He's going to turn and run, and then, in any reasonable person's mind, you make the choice to execute him, most likely shooting him in the back since he's running for the door.

    Nope, he reached for his gun after being instructed to not move. He made ANOTHER bad choice.
    This is your fantasy. Fine, as I've said, if he makes an aggressive move, kill him, I would too. But if all he does is run away, you're a murderer if you kill him.

    You on the other hand, let him turn around and go out the door to your neighbors a week or so later, where he forced into their house, armed again, and was more careful this time and shot the family.
    Right, I let a harmless, fleeing bad guy "turn around and go" because I know I am not Judge, Jury and Executioner, unlike you. Also, I am not a LEO, and it's not my job or concern what the BG does a week or a month later. Neither is it yours, unless you're some kind of wild-eyed vigilante just itching for a chance to kill someone.

    Nope, in your mind, he's never been a threat enough to shoot after FORCED entry, being armed,
    At this point in the OP scenarios, he was unarmed as a result of dropping his weapon and surrendering, or he was unarmed to begin with. I know it's tough, but try to keep your fantasies straight.

    He's lucky, very lucky in fact, that I didn't ALREADY shoot him (as others have stated) the moment I SAW him in my house. But oh no....I'm giving the idiot ANOTHER chance? Don't move idiot....or....
    Right, in your fantasy he obeys your commands, or makes a move towards his weapon. I get it. But if he runs for the door, you'll still shoot him, I get that too, it's very clear.

    I HAD him at gunpoint....
    Right, and then, terrified, maybe he doesn't even speak English, he turns to run away. And then you shoot the unarmed, fleeing BG in the back. Yep, that's very clear.

    It CLEARLY WAS a threat the moment he broke into my house,
    There's that past tense thing again, did you notice? WAS.

    and was armed.
    There it is again, past tense. WAS.

    Again....This is about as THREATENING as one can get all rolled up into one.
    But then he dropped his weapon and surrendered, not threatening any more, is it? Well, apparently it still is, to you. Not so much to me.

    He's going to jail, or if HE decides, he's getting shot.
    If he decides to turn around, unarmed, and run, then you decide to shoot him. Yep, that's clear.

    He's got one last chance, to get shot. HIS choice....
    Again, your assumption is he understands your "orders," and is as scared as you clearly are to act on them. So he turns and runs, and you shoot him. No, I get it alright.

    Doesn't take a "hero" to realize reality and the situation is a threat over and over and over and over again.
    The reality is, the guy is unarmed and has surrendered, and then tries to run for it. You then shoot him. Yep, that's the reality all right, you're a murderer if he dies.

    Perhaps "common sense" should come into play eventually?
    Of course! The common sense that an unarmed, fleeing BG is not a danger to you and that you are a murderer if you kill him. And that it's law enforcement's job, not yours, to prevent him from breaking into any other houses "next week." And the court's job to punish him.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Agreed, but I would add, at least well trained and practiced. Experienced would be nice.
    No doubt. But even an experienced cop, alone, is at risk attempting to handcuff a BG. Safer to stand off at a distance and wait for backup, and defend yourself if need be. Leave the cop stuff to the actual cops.
    "Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
    It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre

  13. #102
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    Gentlemen...

    Lets quit the chest thumping and keep it on topic. There is no need to take things personal. I've left this thread running because it has some good points in it and there are several things to think about.

    Anymore complaints about this thread and it'll get closed.
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  14. #103
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksabre View Post
    No doubt. But even an experienced cop, alone, is at risk attempting to handcuff a BG. Safer to stand off at a distance and wait for backup, and defend yourself if need be. Leave the cop stuff to the actual cops.
    Each person should act according to what their training, experience and instinct tells them.

  15. #104
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    I wonder how many people in this thread have taken force on force training focusing on fighting inside of a structure, or use & retention of firearms in grappling environment.

    It seems like their are two camps in this thread:

    a) Those who have either taken such training as civilians, LE or Military who believe that if they aren't going to shoot the intruder outright, no way in hell they will risk close combat while armed unless no other choice is presented...even if that means letting someone go.

    or

    b) Those who have no clue about how dangerous it is to attempt to restrain someone who wants to get away, and think that just because they own a gun, carry it and may have taken a CCW class that they know how to hold someone who doesn't want to be held safely, at gunpoint or otherwise (such as tying them up...)


    The better trained you are, the more you realize that any conflict has the nasty potential for NOT going YOUR way, and thus you seek to avoid unnecessary fights.

    I'm not taking sides. I'm not advocating anyone do anything they aren't comfortable doing.

    If you think you are well trained enough to capture someone...even an unarmed someone who doesn't want to stay - go for it.

    But...

    Grab a friend, double check your weapons are unloaded, and see how well it works. Give it a few runs...with real resistance.

    You will not be pleasantly surprised at the ease of the encounter.

    Guns will be grabbed. Fingers will be sprained. Bruises will be distributed. Egos will be broken.

    You will 'die' in training.

    Hopefully, not for real in combat.

    Like I said, if you think you are bad enough to keep someone in custody who doesn't want to leave, even if they aren't armed (that you can see...) do it.

    But try it out first with a friend and see if you really are all that.

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I wonder how many people in this thread have taken force on force training focusing on fighting inside of a structure, or use & retention of firearms in grappling environment.

    It seems like their are two camps in this thread:

    a) Those who have either taken such training as civilians, LE or Military who believe that if they aren't going to shoot the intruder outright, no way in hell they will risk close combat while armed unless no other choice is presented...even if that means letting someone go.

    or

    b) Those who have no clue about how dangerous it is to attempt to restrain someone who wants to get away, and think that just because they own a gun, carry it and may have taken a CCW class that they know how to hold someone who doesn't want to be held safely, at gunpoint or otherwise (such as tying them up...)
    It would appear to me that you have left out a catagory, which is a combination of a and b.

    c) Those who have the training and experience of having taken many people into custody and restraining them, who may not shoot an intruder, but will restrain him.

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