Do you shoot him? - Page 6

Do you shoot him?

This is a discussion on Do you shoot him? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 Thanks BikerRN I just wish others would get it. If there is a legitimate threat at that moment, eliminate it not ...

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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Thanks BikerRN I just wish others would get it. If there is a legitimate threat at that moment, eliminate it not a problem with that, the key words being threat and that moment.
    In so many of the posts the BG is shot dead in the blink of an eye and the shooter goes back to eating his cheesecake but they have no other training or experience beyond going to the range once a month and shooting a fixed target at close range without stress or their CCW class but they think they will be able to do all this under stress and under attack.
    I realize there are LEO's, retired combat vets that are members of this forum that have training and experience that needs to be past on to others but many are frustrated as I am getting with the macho gunslinger attitudes and responses on here. One has even said it is your duty to eliminate the BG's if the law is on your side. One must always remember "If you give no mercy, you can expect no mercy".
    Defend your life and family great but do it from a real threat not an imagined one or to fufill some walter mitty fantasy.
    Actually I said "There are some people who would consider it your civic duty". I think my now deceased grandfather would have held this opinion.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.


  2. #77
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Thanks BikerRN I just wish others would get it. If there is a legitimate threat at that moment, eliminate it not a problem with that, the key words being threat and that moment.
    In so many of the posts the BG is shot dead in the blink of an eye and the shooter goes back to eating his cheesecake but they have no other training or experience beyond going to the range once a month and shooting a fixed target at close range without stress or their CCW class but they think they will be able to do all this under stress and under attack.
    I realize there are LEO's, retired combat vets that are members of this forum that have training and experience that needs to be past on to others but many are frustrated as I am getting with the macho gunslinger attitudes and responses on here. One has even said it is your duty to eliminate the BG's if the law is on your side. One must always remember "If you give no mercy, you can expect no mercy".
    Defend your life and family great but do it from a real threat not an imagined one or to fufill some walter mitty fantasy.
    From a personal stand point, my intent to disable the BG and end the threat would be motivated mostly by FEAR. If I was in the situation, BG in my house 2am. I would be pretty damn scared and the quicker he is neutralized the quicker the family and I are safe. What would be going through my mind at the time would be "I am I going to jail for this?" As other have said, if he is there, he broke through quite a few barriers to get there, so I am pretty sure he is serious. I really don't think this situation would ever happen to me. I have 2, 140 pound Great Danes who sleep in my living room and love nothing better than to bark at strangers. No one is going to come in once the narking starts.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  3. #78
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    I am curious though, I guess I should post a poll. Maybe someone will. How many of you posting in this thread think an apparently surrendering BG is not a threat?

    How many think an apparently surrendering BG is still a potential deadly threat.

    In my mind he is a potential deadly threat to me and mine until he is bleeding profusely, gone or cuffed and arrested.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  4. #79
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    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  5. #80
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    In my mind he is a potential deadly threat to me and mine until he is bleeding profusely, gone or cuffed and arrested.

    Mirage2521 you answered your own question. In order for two the the three things mentioned to occur you had to take the time to look at the situation and decide if there was an immediate lethal threat.

    Bleeding Profusely-BG was a threat or did something stupid and you shot him, or the dogs had a really big late night snack.
    Gone- He surrendered, was not a threat and ran away without you shooting him in the back.
    Cuffed and arrested- He surrendered, obeyed commands and you held him until LE arrived and took him away.

    I am not saying someone who has broke into your home is not a threat to some point, all I am saying is take the time to determine what level of threat he is to you and yours before shooting him just because you can.

    SIGguy229 you are right horse is ridden, horse is down, horse is beaten to death and then beaten some more.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #81
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    Yikes.

    I would assume that all of you that "shoot first, shoot second, shoot third, question later" have no teenage children? What if at 2am your kid is sneaking in, wakes you and you blow his/her brains out because you dont' want to take a hot second to ID the noise?

    I'd rather not shoot, will if required, but I'd also rather make damned sure that the person receiving is a BG with intent.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech View Post
    Yikes.

    I would assume that all of you that "shoot first, shoot second, shoot third, question later" have no teenage children? What if at 2am your kid is sneaking in, wakes you and you blow his/her brains out because you dont' want to take a hot second to ID the noise?

    I'd rather not shoot, will if required, but I'd also rather make damned sure that the person receiving is a BG with intent.
    I was just thinking the exact same thing. We have a strong castle doctrine here, I will protect my family from intruders.........BUT there is a difference between an intruder and a perceived intruder.

    One of the four gun safety rules is:

    Be absolutely sure
    of your target
    , and
    what is behind it.

    My 83 year old FIL lives with us, he could have a "spell" during the night and wind up staggering around in our room seeking help.

    Despite how many times I told our teenage son, feel free to come home at any hour, but by all means call first if it is an odd hour, he could forget that warning and come in intending not to disturb us. I don't want to kill my son because he forgot to call.

    I don't advocate giving a home intruder any advantage, but I'm just saying be careful about a potentially incorrect perception.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech View Post
    Yikes.

    I would assume that all of you that "shoot first, shoot second, shoot third, question later" have no teenage children? What if at 2am your kid is sneaking in, wakes you and you blow his/her brains out because you dont' want to take a hot second to ID the noise?

    I'd rather not shoot, will if required, but I'd also rather make damned sure that the person receiving is a BG with intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    I was just thinking the exact same thing. We have a strong castle doctrine here, I will protect my family from intruders.........BUT there is a difference between an intruder and a perceived intruder.

    One of the four gun safety rules is:

    Be absolutely sure
    of your target
    , and
    what is behind it.

    My 83 year old FIL lives with us, he could have a "spell" during the night and wind up staggering around in our room seeking help.

    Despite how many times I told our teenage son, feel free to come home at any hour, but by all means call first if it is an odd hour, he could forget that warning and come in intending not to disturb us. I don't want to kill my son because he forgot to call.

    I don't advocate giving a home intruder any advantage, but I'm just saying be careful about a potentially incorrect perception.
    I think it goes without saying that you would identify your target. I don't have any kids taller than 40 inches. To me it would be pretty obvious, that if a grown man was in my home at 2 AM, he is an intruder. The OP states that you IDENTIFY a strange MAN in your home at 2 AM.

    We are discussing a MAN who has already been identified and is/was armed and has in some way claimed to have surrendered to you. Lets not muddy the waters with any more "what ifs".
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech View Post
    Yikes.

    I would assume that all of you that "shoot first, shoot second, shoot third, question later" have no teenage children? What if at 2am your kid is sneaking in, wakes you and you blow his/her brains out because you dont' want to take a hot second to ID the noise?

    I'd rather not shoot, will if required, but I'd also rather make damned sure that the person receiving is a BG with intent.

    See post #10...


    I specifically said--it depends on your individual situation. Generally, any late night "visitors" are unwelcome.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  10. #85
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    [QUOTE=atctimmy;1659593] I don't have any kids taller than 40 inches.

    Look out, It might be a midget!!!

  11. #86
    Member Array mech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think it goes without saying that you would identify your target. I don't have any kids taller than 40 inches. To me it would be pretty obvious, that if a grown man was in my home at 2 AM, he is an intruder. The OP states that you IDENTIFY a strange MAN in your home at 2 AM.

    We are discussing a MAN who has already been identified and is/was armed and has in some way claimed to have surrendered to you. Lets not muddy the waters with any more "what ifs".
    Right, gotcha. I forgot about the OP after reading pages of "cowboy" responses about blowing away anyone in their homes. I'll try to take for granted in the future that not everyone means exactly what they post and that everyone would take those few critical moments to ID the badguy.
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  12. #87
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    SC Law makes it easy with the Castle Doctrine. "A person is presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to himself or others when using deadly force that is intended to cause death or great bodily injury to another person if that person against whom the deadly force is used is in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or has unlawfully and forcibly entered a dwelling (occupied by the person who has the presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury). Simply put--in SC--you enter someone else's house forcibly or unlawfully and you can be shot to death--period/end of story. In my case I am alone with my wife (no children or others living with me), my bedroom door is locked and secured and everything on the other side of the door is just "stuff" that is insured. Yes it would be nice not to have it taken but I will not risk my life over it; they may be better armed and better shots than I. IF THEY COME INTO MY LOCKED AND SECURED BEDROOM, HOWEVER, THEY HAVE MADE THEIR INTENTIONS KNOWN FULL WELL AND I WILL USE ALL OF MY RESOURCES TO ENSURE MY SAFETY AND THAT OF MY WIFE AGAINST A REASONABLE FEAR OF IMMINENT DEATH OR GREAT BODILY INJURY.

  13. #88
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    SC Law makes it easy with the Castle Doctrine. "A person is presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to himself or others when using deadly force that is intended to cause death or great bodily injury to another person if that person against whom the deadly force is used is in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or has unlawfully and forcibly entered a dwelling (occupied by the person who has the presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury). Simply put--in SC--you enter someone else's house forcibly or unlawfully and you can be shot to death--period/end of story. In my case I am alone with my wife (no children or others living with me), my bedroom door is locked and secured and everything on the other side of the door is just "stuff" that is insured. Yes it would be nice not to have it taken but I will not risk my life over it; they may be better armed and better shots than I. IF THEY COME INTO MY LOCKED AND SECURED BEDROOM, HOWEVER, THEY HAVE MADE THEIR INTENTIONS KNOWN FULL WELL AND I WILL USE ALL OF MY RESOURCES TO ENSURE MY SAFETY AND THAT OF MY WIFE AGAINST A REASONABLE FEAR OF IMMINENT DEATH OR GREAT BODILY INJURY.
    i'm not sure that is as simple as you want it to be...just for conversation sake the majority are just taking shots because somebody is in the house...regardless of whether they fear great injury or death and whether the person in their house is "using deadly force that is intended to cause death or great bodily injury to another person"....

    might want to read that a couple of times again....i know its your word against the dead guy...but now that youve etched it in stone here where a district attorney can find it you might want to make sure its as simple as you think it is....

    my wifes cousin managed to stumble into a house while staying here in florida...drunk...walked up to the front door and key didnt work...decided he would have to climb in the window...ended up tripping on an unfamiliar piece of furntire and knocking himself out on the neighbors coffee table..fortunately the neighbor identified him as a neighbor before deciding that he feared for his life and killed him...

    ******* move for certain...but possibilities exist....

    and depending on what kind of carpeting you have...remember to blot instead of rub....dont want to make those stains worse...

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well this is certainly a divided issue.
    21Bubba I dont know exactly what you mean by your comment but if you are implying that I need to train more to deal with a home intruder or train more to decide whether to shoot an unarmed person I will beg to differ. I have been a LE trainer for 27 years in the states and abroad and have logged thousands of hours of training.
    I train constantly both here and when I am at home. 10 days of my 30 day leave is committed to taking organized classes from some of the best schools in the country just to keep my skills and knowledge fresh that is what keeps me alive.
    You NEVER, EVER draw your weapon without thinking and you damn sure dont shoot without thinking. Even if that thought is a micro second long you must look at the entire situation before pulling the trigger. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act the OODA loop if you dont know what it is google it and learn from it. You determine if there is an actual threat, not just by mere presence of the person, and act accordingly.
    Every action you take you have to be able to articulate what you did for the jury, LE, the prosecutor and anyone else concerned. If you think the attitude of "Oh I didnt think I just shot, he was in my house and I have that right" is correct you will be made out as the person waiting in hiding to ambush an intruder so you can put a notch on your gun.
    I see your point and realize that I misunderstood your post and also the other poster.

    One does need to think before shooting, just not very long.


    These discussions on this type of subject always seem to argue the extremes of a given situation. Considerations have to be made for the details. My house has two occupants, there for if there becomes a third person in the house,in the middle of the night, my response will be different than a house with kids.

  15. #90
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    Roger that not a problem
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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